Philosophical Proofs: Paradox of Religion (Part 2)

The second part of my Philosophical Proofs series. The section dicusses what I call "The Free Will Paradox". Dissenting opinions not only allowed . . . but encouraged.

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Tags:

• philosophy
• hell
• atheism
• atheist
• christianity
• islam
• religion
• argument
• god
• faith
• debate
• free
• will

[Firequacker]

Here's a mind-tickler - if I could create a perfect environment for humans, I would only invite humans who, at the time of invitation, were respectful of that environment and its inhabitants (not common.). If I lived in 40,000 AD and I developed time-travel and this 'heaven,' I would CERTAINLY monitor history for the most cultured state of every mind - those stable but nearest death - and bring those people into my heaven. The rest would have suffered, but their deaths led to heaven's develpmnt.

[HonestDiscussioner]

@Firequacker But if you are a perfect being, and you created humans, and their perfect environment, they would only choose to behave perfectly by definition. IOW, their behaviors would be exactly what this perfect being intended. They could still have the CAPACITY to make a mistake, but they'd never actually make one. There is nothing logically contradictory, to my knowledge, about this scenario, and therefore should be possible for a God to implement.

[Firequacker]

@HonestDiscussioner Youtube is just.. retarded.. debate.com, starting tomorrow! Do they allow discussion that is not in a debating style?

[HonestDiscussioner]

@Firequacker Not really. It'll be just like this though, only you can write one very long response and make as many points as you'd like on as many topics as you like. I'll set it up so we have as many responses as they'll allow, and give a week timer, meaning each person has one week or less to respond to the other person. Just let me know what you want the subject of the debate to be (or we'll just go with your original premise). Then make an account and I'll lay down the challenge.

[Ranokian]

@Firequacker O yes it does. It matters. I do not think that my points really got trough to you. You do not have a choice, if you want to see your God in a positive way. That is my point. And I do believe that choise sets events in motion.

[Firequacker]

@Ranokian I'm sorry, but you continue to repeat yourself, I don't think it matters to you if I respond truthfully xD

[Ranokian]

@Firequacker Doing evil is a choice. So where did our ability to choose evil come from? From our free will, given by God, or is installed by our creator? Just a question: would you still follow your religion if your God created, allowed and endorsed evil? Most people won't. Believers either accept that God did evil acts, and admit that they follow an evil God. For most people that isn't an option, so they accept " free will". In effect, free will is a loophole created to keep religion alive

[Firequacker]

@Ranokian It doesn't make sense that free will could cause anything, it's not an event. Choices are the causes. Free will is a quality of existence. I'm fine knowing that people do bad things, really. I just do good.

"its based on the need to keep your faith alive." My faith is not a creature, I do not NEED my faith so survive, I choose to believe continuously. I have yet to really face -anything- that has made me reconsider my belief since my reconversion, and I have done a lot of searching.

[Ranokian]

@Firequacker Our innate ability to do wrong is either "installed", by the creator, or its the result of free will. What created the theory of free will? In my opinion, it is the inability of the believers to accept that the evil sides of mankind are installed By god. The core of my point: your position forces you to accept "free will given by God" causes us to do bad things. Your acceptance is of this isn't dependent on facts, who are irrelevant, its based on the need to keep your faith alive.

[Firequacker]

@Ranokian You can be whatever you want to be, to be accepted by Jesus you must promise to become like him, though, and then take immediate action to do so. Also, free will implicates the ability to do wrong, I don't see what you mean by your last clause.

[Ranokian]

@Firequacker Ok true, almost no one. But if the common opinion was that Jesus Christ was evil, Christianity would be marginalized. What Christianity does is very smart, you can love "thou neighbour" OR you can be intolerant based on the vengeful God. Both groups of believers feel supported. What both groups have in common, that they both need the concept of free will. Both groups cant even handle the thought of the innate ability of mankind to do wrong, is installed by the maker of mankind.

[Firequacker]

@Ranokian That's assuming that God is absolutely omnipotent, which he is most likely not. Also, if he is evil and he exists, he is still God and the ultimate authority. It isn't true to say 'no one wants to worship a God that is not good.' Hardcore Satanists believe that they are making a pact with a person who will ultimately burn them, yet they lovingly worship their 'God'.

[Ranokian]

@Firequacker part 2. The real reason is that a negative God will reflect on its believers. Would you like to be associated with a God that is seen as wrong? After all, we all have a sense of right and wrong. So your lack of judgement of God is not as much based on the divine aspect of God as you would like. And there was: Free Will. In order to avoid that God gets blamed for our innate ability to do wrong free will came into the picture. Isn't love me or burn forever is the opposite of free will