Historical Resurrection of Christ? NT Wright responds (HD)

(HD) Transcript: "The resurrection of Jesus took everybody by surprise. The disciples werent expecting it. They knew perfectly well, that if you followed someone who you thought was the Messiah, and he got killed, then that was it. We know at least a dozen other Messianic or prophetic movements, within a hundred years on either side of Jesus, they routinely ended with the death of the founder. And if the movement wanted to continue, they didnt say, oh hes been raised from the dead. They said, lets find his brother or cousin who can carry on this movement. You can see how those Jewish groups did that. This one did it differently. They had James the brother of Jesus, as this great leader of the early church, but nobody said, James is the Messiah. They said, Jesus is the Messiah. Why? Hes dead. They got him, didnt you realize they crucified... No. He was raised from the dead. The only way you can explain, why Christianity began, and why it took the very precise shape it was, is lets say it cautiously, first - they really did believe He was bodily raised from the dead. And then if you take the second question, why would they believe that? You can go through all the theories, that they found themselves forgiven. They had a fresh sense of the presence of God. That this was cognitive dissonance, etc. Then you bring all those theories to the actual facts that we know on the ground in the first century. . .they just dont fit. The only way you can explain the rise of the early Christian belief that Jesus was raised, is that there really was an empty tomb. They really did meet Jesus again, in a transformed body. And the thing makes sense. Of course, when I wrote a big book on this, my philosopher tutor from Oxford who was an atheist read it and he said, great book. You really make the argument. I simply choose to believe that there must be some other explanation even though I dont know what it was. I said, fine. Thats as far as I can take you. I cant bully you into saying, therefore you must believe. Because to do that requires a change of world view. But, once you change the world view, and say, maybe there really is a creator God. Maybe this creator God, really is sorting out this sad old world at last. Then, everything else makes sense in a way that it doesnt with any other possibility."

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[Dustin Bank]

Thanks Phillip, you too!

[Phillip Lightweis-Goff]

I've seriously considered the things you've said, hence my very specific replies. It's not that I think the notions are ridiculous, but rather more that the notions do not and indeed cannot be tenable... which does not bode well regardless of the actual state of affairs. But anyways, take care.

[Dustin Bank]

Hey Phillip, it seems we continue to reach an impasse. There are a great deal of things, even basic matters of logic and reason, that, sadly, we cannot come to comon ground on. I do hope, though, that you'll consider seriously some of the things I've said, and I will certainly also consider seriously the arguments you've put forward. I believe in a God you loves you and died for us both (I know you think that's ridiculous). But, I really have enjoyed the dialogue, man, so thank you.

[Phillip Lightweis-Goff]

How are we to know that this "god" is being truthful? Without possessing god-like powers, verifying this being's identity and motives is impossible... much less the comprehensibility of the message in the first place. As such, those boundaries aren't so clear after all... and indeed, seem rather hideous. Genocides galore, the promised torture of most of humanity for nothing... even if we were to accept such things face-value as the truth about him... why choose to follow such a thing?

[Phillip Lightweis-Goff]

Actually, ANY such power and authority unmoored by the collective will of those who live in society is a terrible thing... and that includes this god, who (as the greatest so-called "authority") only seems to be the most terrible thing anyone could have devised... THE metaphysical threat.

Ick.

[Phillip Lightweis-Goff]

If it's possible to break a perfect law, then by definition it wouldn't be perfect... but in this case, it's more of a matter of perfect-creator responsibility: If this god "gave us a choice", then the result of ALL our choices is god-derived. He actualized their existence, thus he is ultimately responsible. We cannot "go out on our own" in any real sense... so why are we blamed for HIS acts?

[Phillip Lightweis-Goff]

Why would you think that this "relational level" has any authority whatsoever? "Quality" according to whom? (not me, that's for sure) Listening to them isn't enough... their metaphysical efficacy has to be independently verified somehow; thus the infinite regress of justification, and the reasonableness of skepticism.

[Phillip Lightweis-Goff]

You can't have it both ways: if he's a god and you are not, the gulf exists by virtue of his infinity and your finitude... regardless of him "revealing" anything to you (which remains mired in unverifiability). There's no "allows to be found" here... if he could be, he's not a god at all. Of course, you could argue that he very well could create a rock he couldn't lift... but admitting that sort of self-referential stuff really mucks everything up.

[Phillip Lightweis-Goff]

In the first sense of the word, you're simply talking about working assumptions, not faith per se. In the second... I'm not sure how's that's sensible in the slightest. Why would I need or want salvation when I have not and indeed cannot have done anything wrong in regards to this god? Why would this god temporarily dying on a cross solve this non-problem?

I recorded a video a while back (on my channel) on the subject of the Resurrection you might like.

[Phillip Lightweis-Goff]

No, you misunderstand: our larger capacity means we have LESS of an ability for "relationship" with those with lesser capacity (and really, we don't have much with 2-year-olds), due to the widening gap of understanding... which means than an infinite god is COMPLETELY cut off from any relationship with us or anything else that is not god-like. By virtue of being perfect, he cannot "satisfy" such "needs" (btw... I don't have that need) that would require him to be less than a god.