Debate With Mormon Apologist at General Conference (Did God Perhaps Sin?)

http://www.GodNeverSinned.com

A conversational debate between Aaron Shafovaloff (evangelical) and Robert Vukich (Mormon apologist).

This video is a great example of why it is important to keep probing when a Mormon apologist seems to affirm traditional Christian doctrine.

Robert was very confusing. Toward the beginning he said God was always God and that he never sinned, but then later revealed that the "never" only applies to the timeframe that we know of, and that there may be a timeframe beyond what is in our current view where he had to become a God and where he may have sinned. In fact, Robert went on to say that if "theosis" (as Mormons define it) applies to us forward, then it probably applies to God backward (i.e. God went through theosis).

He also equivocated on the issue of whether God was once a sinner, sometimes insistent that He never sinned, sometimes insistent that no one can really know if God sinned.

Category:

Nonprofits & Activism

Tags:

• fair
• lds
• mormon
• god
• never
• sinned
• aaron
• shafovaloff
• robert
• vukich

[trencher7]

Who knows what Aaron is trying to prove when all he has is speculation.

[aaronshaf2006]

@trencher7 Whether God sinned is speculation?

[trencher7]

LDS do not believe God ever sinned. Nor is it doctrine. Jesus never sinner either. And in the NT Jesus said he only did what he saw the father do. If the Father sinned then so would have Jesus.

[aaronshaf2006]

@trencher7 I assume *you* believe this, but I can't impose your beliefs on other Mormons, especially since they have consistently shown me that about two-thirds of them believe God was once perhaps a sinful mortal before becoming a God. To be honest, when Mormons make, "LDS do not believe..." statements, I have to hold as a real possibility that an individual Mormon simply is ignorant on the matter, or is being deceptive---and deception is an *epidemic* problem in Mormonism.

[trencher7]

@aaronshaf2006 When I say that I mean it's not doctrine of the Church. Sure you might find some LDS who believe all sorts of false or nutty things. Just as you would of Baptists, Catholics, or any denomination. You wouldn't be proving anything if you did find some that did.

[aaronshaf2006]

If you define "doctrine" as what the Church and members *should* teach and believe, instead of what is typically *actually* taught and believed, and then limit it to the original teaching of the Standard Works, then there is a jaw-dropping, massive collection of significant beliefs that Mormon leadership and members teach and believe that are not even "official." The "official doctrine" denial tactic is designed to shield Mormonism from responsibility for what is *actually* taught and believed.

[aaronshaf2006]

@trencher7 Also, the idea that God perhaps sinned is absolutely NOT the fringe, "nutty" edge of Mormonism, of what a few eccentric people believe. It is the default, mainstream, standard, dominant belief of Mormon laymen.

[imationqwest]

“But even if we or an angel from heaven (moroni) should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, curse be on him!” Galatians 1:6-9 Mormon’s are not prepared for the coming apocalypse, Huge Sorrow will be to the mormon who refuse to see the truth, You have been warned your fall will be great. Read the BIBLE ONLY!

[Here2ownU]

@Bacnow I agree. In my apologetics with Mormons, I have found that many other Christians want to convince Mormons of how wrong thier faith is. Although they may convince some to leave the Mormon cult, this doesn't necessarily bring them to salvation (in fact a high % of exmormons become athiest). The Diety of Christ and the grace and salvation he offers should be essential to the conversation.

[blackmamba54321]

@JohnECocaine Technically yes.

[JohnECocaine]

Does Batman have more power than Superman? Grace exists only in your confused mind.

[UKwildcats2121]

2 religious people arguing is basically like 2 retards fighting

[trencher7]

@aaronshaf2006 Nonsense. And your evidence of this is what? I don't believe God ever sinned and don't know of any other LDS who even consider it. As you well know LDS might speculate on the words of Jesus when he said he only did what he saw the Father do, but Christ's life never included sinning. If you would like we can go together and I will tell my Bishop I reject any doctrine that claims God was ever a sinner. What will my punishment be???