Part 2 -- Believers are agnostics.
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@Daruqe - I know. But I am hoping that we are invisible drivers of these cars we call bodies, and though the expression of consciousness through the bodies is how materialists assess it, it's nice to think they're wrong. But one thing that does give my position some credibility, from my perspective anyway, is how people attain or glimpse "enlightenment," and also the way consciousness is affected by DMT and other so-called entheogens. There's a lot going on, I do believe.
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Intuition suggests that consciousness is separate from the body, but intuition is no basis for knowledge. While I can point to experiments that suggest that consciousness is tied to the brain, there's nothing I can point to that suggests that it's separate. What could a consciousness without a brain do? The brain thinks, the brain feels, the brain stores memories, the brain decides; there's no evidence for anything manipulating the brain to do this, even if it is possible.
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From my understanding, string theory is just speculation--it's not even a theory despite it's name--it's just one idea to link quantum mechanics to gravity, and it's NOT agreed upon by a majority of scientists. I get the problem of consciousness, it's the religious argument I am THE most sympathetic to, and despite what you may hear, I don't think science has a satisfactory solution to it--one that speaks to our intuitions. But I think that's the real problem here: intuition.
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@Daruqe - You speak of a consciousness that is tied to the brain. I speak of one that inhabits the body and interacts with its environment via the brain, etc. When the brain is damaged, the consciousness is driving a malfunctioning vehicle. That is if the consciousness (the real me) even remains with the body at that point. And thanks to string theory etc., even physical scientists are dealing with things that can't be tested, proven or demonstrated. The gap is narrowing. Nice cuppa tea?
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"the reliance on the brain for consciousness has yet to be shown." All I say is you should look more into neurology. And really, it's the other way around: we know consciousness has at least something to do with the brain, so we'd have to show that something else is responsible for consciousness in order to believe it, because, whatever it may be, we can't detect it.
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@Daruqe - For me, the reliance on the brain for consciousness has yet to be shown. The driver leaves the car. Manifestations of what we call consciousness diminish or vanish altogether, but if consciousness exists apart from the material world, the effect would be the same. I'm not saying what is, just not ready to connect dots that seem to have mega space between.
I don't know about humans, let alone plants and animals! By "the One," I mean the collective consciousness, not Big Daddy.
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I think anthropomorphizing the universe--thinking about the universe in terms of people and being controlled by a person is all too natural; it makes intuitive sense to see the hand of people in the universe, but the more we learn about the universe, we see that it's not full of people like we'd expect. Rainbows aren't the sign of a covenant; the earth isn't stretched upon man-made pillars; man wasn't hand-made from clay--as weird as it is, things just sort of happen on their own.
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I don't, and probably the biggest reason I don't is because consciousness can't exist without a brain. 1. We have no examples of conscious beings without a brain and 2. Any alteration in the physical brain results in changes--sometimes radical--in the personality of a person. Also, what about other animals? They're conscious too (the ones with brains). Do they "return to the One" too?
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@Daruqe - I can't shake the sense that there is "something" like a god, but I don't believe in Allah or Yahweh or any specific god or gods. If there is a god, I expect to be inconceivably surprised. One thing that makes sense to me though, is that god is consciousness, the consciousness that created the cosmos. And we are incarnations of that consciousness in these bodies. Then, at death, we go back to the One. But that's just me thinking; no way I claim it to be truth. How about you?
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Do you BELIEVE in a god(s)?
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The definition of matter that you've discarded is actually a valid one in Merriam-Webster's dictionary. Moreover, any definition broken down, step by step, ultimately becomes either vague, circular or presented using a combination of secondary and relational attributes. You would expect that to happen when trying to describe the first element of causality. I know God, but He's unique - It's hard for me to compare Him with anything you can relate to, but it doesn't deny my knowledge of Him.
MichaelGabrielR 5 months ago
@MichaelGabrielR "I know God"
How do you know this god? And what do you know about God?
"It's hard for me to compare Him with anything you can relate to, but it doesn't deny my knowledge of Him."
What is the source of your knowledge and what do you know?
ProfMTH 5 months ago
@ProfMTH
"How do you know this god? And what do you know about God? What is the source of your knowledge and what do you know?"
Technically, everyone has a basic concepts of God, right/wrong and infinity, though unable to fully describe them. I would just be repeating the obvious. The technical knowledge comes from observable evidence and intimate knowledge comes from believing his promises found in Scripture. I believe Jesus to be God the Son, based on studying available data, Bible included.
MichaelGabrielR 5 months ago
@MichaelGabrielR "Technically, everyone has a basic concepts of God...."
Technically? What do you mean? What are these "basic concepts of God" that "everyone" has and how does "everyone" get them?
"unable to fully describe them"
I didn't ask for a comprehensive explanation, I asked for a coherent one.
"The technical knowledge comes from observable evidence...."
Which is what?
"intimate knowledge comes from believing"
So faith is a source of knowledge?
ProfMTH 5 months ago
@ProfMTH
I do get my beliefs from the Bible, but I would't believe it, unless I had a good reason. It has proven itself to me (and to a notable body of scholars) by being the most reliable ancient text and giving accurate predictions (which you know of). If it has a basis in reality, it can be confirmed by it (see "Born Believers: The Naturalness of Childhood Theism" among others). Yes, faith in his promises, when tested, gives us knowledge of who he is (truthful, faithful, trustworthy etc).
MichaelGabrielR 5 months ago
@MichaelGabrielR You're not really answering my questions, much less telling me coherently what it is you call "god." Bottom line: my guess is you cannot coherently explain what "god" is; you make my point for me.
BTW, if you're a Christian, you very much *do* get your beliefs--at least many of them--from the Bible. It is the purported revelation on which Christianity in its many and varied forms is based. Without it, there would be no Christianity.
ProfMTH 5 months ago