Willie Craig Can't Kalam

drcraigvideos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnpa_kQaCgA

Craig on Kalam and thermodynamics:
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6515

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cosmological-argument/#4

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http://www.youtube.com/user/venaloid

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[CHASCHARLTON]

2;58 "nothing began to exist" ? consciousness is immaterial and I am pretty sure mine yours and everyone in-between began to exist

[Clutchology]

@CHASCHARLTON Me: "From an atomic perspective...nothing began to exist."

You: "Consciousness is immaterial."

I'm not seeing the problem here.

[Clutchology]

@rationalresponseguy No, he does not.

He can regurgitate the words, but seems to have no grasp of the implications or intentions behind them.

If he did then he would never make this objection. Because it doesn't address our point.

And you making that comment seems to indicate that you don't either.

Saying otherwise is equivalent to telling us what we mean. We're quite capable of doing that for ourselves, thanks.

But go ahead. Keep calling us all morons. That's productive to conversation.

[Clutchology]

@compgrad1 Smart people make bad arguments, too. Craig's an extremely slippery philosopher. He often contradicts himself between debates, strawmans his sceptics, and bases arguments on false premises. Like he did here.

I've never heard him address this common criticism of Kalam. Probably because asserts he already has.

I'd enjoy hearing a good counter-point to this argument. And I expect there's one out there. But I doubt it'll come from Craig.

[RuinSonic]

@MomoTheBellyDancer So what your saying is we don't know logic is true? In essence wouldn't that mean that we don't know anything since reason flows from a standard of logic? Is that an epistemology you really want to defend?

[MomoTheBellyDancer]

@RuinSonic

". If by logic you mean intuitive thinking then yes logic can be wrong. "

Logic is a construct that does not exist outside of the mind that build it. In principle, all we consider "logic" could be totally wrong. It's still all we have though when we try to guess how our universe works, which could be a called a burden of the wiring of our brains.

[RuinSonic]

@MomoTheBellyDancer

"Which is exactly my original sentiment. "

Great, then maybe we don't have much to disagree with. If by logic you mean intuitive thinking then yes logic can be wrong. However, I don't think it is wise to choose the word logic for that. There is a view that logic is not absolute or that it could be wrong. I prefer to say what seems reasonable or what is intuitive to us isn't always true.

[MomoTheBellyDancer]

@RuinSonic

"Wow, we must respect WLC for being a "philosopher"."

If he really is considered to be one by his peers, then it simply means that philosophy has reached a dead end.

"Our intuition is often proven to be wrong"

Which is exactly my original sentiment.

[RuinSonic]

@MomoTheBellyDancer "By claiming philosophers don't test their ideas? How so?"

Wow, we must respect WLC for being a "philosopher". Yeah, he is, but he is also a wanker who preaches to his church of apologists using out of context atheist arguments.

"You know, you're free to start making sense anytime now."

Your original statement didn't make sense. Our intuition is often proven to be wrong. Creationist thinking is a perfect example of how intuition fails to be another word for logic.

[MomoTheBellyDancer]

@RuinSonic

"And you like WLC seem to like taking things out of context."

By claiming philosophers don't test their ideas? How so?

"So does Creationism have a lot of overlap with intuitive thinking."

You know, you're free to start making sense anytime now.

[RuinSonic]

@MomoTheBellyDancer "Yet philosophers like Craig refuse to do that."

And you like WLC seem to like taking things out of context.

"The two have significant overlap."

So does Creationism have a lot of overlap with intuitive thinking.