The Biggest Problem for Religion: Psychology

I believe that psychology clearly shows that we are our thoughts. With that in mind, where does the soul come in? Without the soul, where does religion come in?

Atheist agnostic college psychology professors:
http://bhascience.blogspot.com/2009/05/psychologists-are-least-religious-of.html

The study that virtually debunks free will:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080414145705.htm

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Tags:

• psychology
• religion
• free
• will
• christian
• atheist
• yt:stretch=16:9

[shadowphoenix88]

The study that you posted does not virtually debunk free will. At the end, the authors say that they still do not know how where final decisions are made--only that they have located a region of readiness from which they can predict with decent accuracy. I don't draw the same conclusions that you do, but they are fascinating studies. Further, your fundamental assumption is on materialism. It is folly to say that there is "no room for [the soul] in the data"; the two are not mutually exclusive.

[HonestDiscussioner]

@shadowphoenix88 " It is folly to say that there is "no room for [the soul] in the data""

I won't say that. I will say there is no room for the soul in the data if said soul is to cause our decisions. If it does cause our decisions, we should be unable to do what the study did, period. That is why I think it debunks free will. It shows that there is an unconscious aspect to decision making. As it is understood, if our conscious mind is not doing the deciding, then it isn't free.

[shadowphoenix88]

@HonestDiscussioner

Ah, so the soul in question would need to have an effect on us to be necessary. I consider the immaterial soul-mind-essence-will entity an odd paradoxical "non-thing" that cannot be discovered or found with certainty, much like a deity, but I see evidence of the effect of many immaterial non-things that cannot be explained (and may never be explained) despite our best scientific advances. If it exists, our physical nature affects it, but can it affect the physical in return?

[shadowphoenix88]

(continued) I will grant that much of our decision-making is automatic or predetermined (a la Sartre, physical to physical), and it is difficult to "change our minds." But we may through many iterations over time make significant changes to our conscious, behavioral selves. Quit smoking, accept differences, etc. That is where I find the self, or the will, behind the thoughts. Whether this is a mind, soul, mind-soul, or something else, or whether it is eternal--these are things I can't answer.

[HonestDiscussioner]

@shadowphoenix88 "" But we may through many iterations over time make significant changes to our conscious, behavioral selves"

But these changes were based off of previous things that happened, and the changes may had gone a different way had past decisions been different. Chaos theory shows we can't simply have "a few formative choices", if there is anything about who we become that isn't under our control, then our will was determined by something outside ourselves, and therefore not free.

[HonestDiscussioner]

@shadowphoenix88 "on us to be necessary"

No to be necessary, but to matter in our behaviors. We could have some sort of soul that is an observer of our actions and absorbs our experiences, but there's no room in the data for something that is controlling us directly.

You'll have to give me an example of what sort of immaterial things you speak of.

[HonestDiscussioner]

@175walid Is there a literal bug, as in a fly or beetle, behind me? And are you asking who created it? I think its parents most likely, and their parents created it, and so on and so forth, until you get all the way back to the primordial earth and the self replicated molecule. Thanks.

[StrummingSparrow]

there is a concept about the soul that makes it limitless. perhaps it's also associated with aspirations and what we should be doing. the spirit is willing but the body is weak.

[shadowphoenix88]

I was gone for the weekend and wanted to come here for some civility after getting angry elsewhere on this site. I didn't just decide to give up. Currently crafting new responses (and checking out some of your other videos).

[HonestDiscussioner]

@steveb0503 We all have delusions in some manner. It would be incredibly difficult to remove them all. The job of a therapist isn't to remove delusion and promote logic, but promote healthy lifestyle and emotional health. Most peoples' religion doesn't get in the way of that, some even support it.

Not to mention that going to a shrink isn't mandatory, and people aren't going to go if they get their core beliefs challenged.

[steveb0503]

Yeah, but the real problem (as see it) is that psychologists seem to accept that a person's religious beliefs are a "hands off" topic, not subject to the same kind of scrutiny that other beliefs are.

I think we can blame accepted social conventions for this - although I cannot quite reason out why. Wouldn't a middle-aged person professing an active belief in Santa Claus (and actions motivated by such beliefs) be qualified as delusional?

Wherein lies the difference?