Atheism vs India (6)

The soul.

What does this word mean? What do we refer to when we say "the soul"? It is amazing how often this word is used and affirmed or dismissed without the underlying concept being examined. What is awareness? What is consciousness? And by logical progression, what is aware, and what is conscious?

In my opinion, all that we can say is that it is. Cogito ergo sum. But that in itself is a gigantic discovery, and that (to use an archimedean reference) is the "place to stand" by which we will metaphorically move the earth. There is something we can be sure of.

It cannot be an illusion, because an illusion by its very nature needs to be visited upon something conscious.

The Kena Upanishad expresses this eloquently and succinctly in its very first chapter:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe01/sbe01176.htm

I wonder if Dawkins or the Dove World Outreach Center ever even bother to think about things like this :-)

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[tomtomttom]

You can only really understand consciousness by your personal experience. No scientific tool, or advancement in technology or anything else can really tell you that. Even people who have discovered it for themselves can't tell you that, you have to experience it for yourself. And in fact that is a form of science. Science dictates to us to be able reproduce an experiment. Same goes here, understanding consciousness must be reproduced in each of us just like science.

[Anekantavad]

@tomtomttom Quite. We know that consciousness is. That's all we know.

Some say that that's enough. Well, since it's all we can ever be sure about, it had better be enough :-)

[shikhin]

Well, science may not have a complete picture of consciousness now, but the fields of neuroscience, cognitive sciences in general are coming up with increasingly plausible and sensible theories about what consciousness is. For example, according to V.S. Ramachandran, consciousness is something along the lines of " mirror neurons, apart from carrying out their usual task of representing other individuals, go one step ahead and represent themselves".

Read "tell-tale brain" by vs ramachandran

[Anekantavad]

@shikhin Well, that's all very well, but it isn't conclusive. It's also extremely metaphorical, no?

[daniyelplainview]

Brilliant...

[shikhin]

@tomtomttom Something's may not be measurable "now". That doesn't exclude the possibility altogether. Many things related to the brain r infact measurable nd hav bin measured. wt is missing is a theory tht explains all the data. So maybe all f it hs bin already measured. V just need to do the explaining. The point is, science may nt hv it now, bt 2 say dt it cnt "every hav it" , is arrogance.

[tomtomttom]

@shikhin Yes, let's leave falsifiable claims of authority like, "I am an Indian and a Hindu by birth by the way," because they are irrelevant to the issue at hand. Let us focus on the actually issue at hand. Science and experience. First of all, Hinduism (better put Sanatan Dharma) is not against science at all nor does it claim to have discovered all the great scientific mysteries of all time. But what I and even the video is saying is somethings can't be measured. Only experienced.

[shikhin]

@tomtomttom Ofcourse I'm not an authority on nethin...lets leave tht outta d picture n concentrate on the issue at hand. experiencing smthin n "understanding" it r 2 vry diff. things. Sum traditions may have a history f experiencing alternative states f consc. bt so do many drug users. Dsn't mean they "understand" the very nuts n bolts f the thing, the way a scientist would understand it....

[tomtomttom]

@shikhin "I am an Indian and a Hindu by birth by the way."

Just realized what this statement is referred to as. Appeal to Authority which is a logical fallacy. Some might call it the weakest form of logical fallacies. If you were such a big fan of science, you probably should avoid such fallacies.

[tomtomttom]

@shikhin And the other point I want to make is many Hindus who did practice meditation or yoga do the study of ourselves, the mind and ect. by self examination. And these are things that external interments can't not measure. These is all about the personal experience. No one can tell you at that point through science what is going on. It is the individual who must experience it. That is the essence of Hinduism, Buddhism, and other Dharmic faiths. It is about experiencing it.

[tomtomttom]

@shikhin "I am an Indian and a Hindu by birth by the way."

By making this statement does not make you an authority or an expert, so I would avoid using such unnecessary statements unless you are actually a scholar on Hinduism and a well versed Sanskrit scholar.

[crazybasement]

Boom. We have a winner. Intriguing points.