James Patrick Holding takes Ken Humphreys behind the woodshed Part II

James Patrick Holding and Ken Humphreys debate: Did Jesus Exist?

This debate is property of Premier Christian Radio, I am simply putting this up for other users to listen to and enjoy!

Part III: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6bjlqioheo

Category:

News & Politics

Tags:

• James
• Patrick
• Holding
• Tektonics
• Apologetics
• Ministries
• Ken
• Humphreys
• Did
• Jesus
• Exist
• Cornelius
• Tacitus

[macroman52]

I assume Gamaliel is an histroical figure. I can't see the relevance of that because I have no idea what you are talking about.

[UTubekookdetector]

MAC: Did you even listen to the debate above? Why do you see GAM as an historical figure? Do you believe the Iliad has been subject to massive interpolations and redaction? Why or why not?

[macroman52]

I have no opinion about Gamaliel. Does he appear in Mark, I thought not? So do the historical figures Herod and Pilate appear in Mark. So what? Mark's jesus before Pilate sounds suspisciously like, Jesus of Jerusalem before the Governor in Josphesus. jesus's entry to Jerusalem and the cleansing of the Temple, and the ressurection from the tomb, sound suspisciously like the story of Simon ben Giora also told by Josphesus. Just coincidences if Marks' Gospel was written before 70AD?

[UTubekookdetector]

MAC: You should give me an opinion on GAM, it seems you're dodging it. Your contrived argument of similarity has been used before concerning Genesis, the Gilgamesh Epic, et al. It's a simplistic & generalized appeal. If suspicion is all you have, that won't stand up in court, sorry.

[macroman52]

So JP, if the senneca letters were a pious fiction, never prentending to be true, couldn't Mark's gospel be exactly that? Mark's attempt to recontruct a life of jesus based on nothing but what he had from Paul (via revealation) and the old testament?

[UTubekookdetector]

MAC: It certainly *could* be, but you're merely asserting doubt. I would argue Mark's Gospel was around in oral form during the first generation after Christ and thus, not something that was highly redacted and evolved over time. I would argue it was in its final form <40 years after Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. Do you think Gamaliel was an historical fiction?

[ShinoCunning]

As for the Bible, in general, it's historical text. Only some of it is historical documentation in the strict sense. For example, Gospels are very similar to Greaco-Roman biography.

Getting back to Jesus, you claim that it could have been another figure? So, the Christians followed another man with such a name who was crucified under Pilate? Moreover, Tacitus is accounted for the origin of the movement's name.

[ShinoCunning]

Wow, seems you're spanking this kid worse than JP did Humphreys.

seonf, the point he is making is that you have made a methodological claim as your basis for denying historical evidence that is already on the table. He is showing you that your methodological claim would mean that the bulk of figures in antiquity don't exist. It's an argument by reductio ad absurdum. Your methodological claim is therefore false, leaving you without a basis for denying the evidence presented.

[UTubekookdetector]

You still haven't given me an answer pertaining to Zalmoxis and I think it's because everyone will know how your parameters for proof change.

For example, how old are the oldest partial copies of Alexander the Great's biographies? Do you believe he existed?

So, I'll ask one more time, apply your same reasoning to Zalmoxis and tell me whether he existed or not and how you reached your conclusion.

Do you consider Livy's writings to be a "historical document"?

[seonf]

As for Tacitus' he just mentions the historical founder of Christianity. Christus is not Roman for Christ and he certainly doesn't say the word Jesus like some of the deceitful Christian apologists say (they put in Jesus) Christus a misspelling of Christ? Come on, do you have any evidence? Also Christus has other meanings as well. Christus was referred to as a freed slave or enlightened one.