Antique 17th Century Rapier draw cuts, and edge blows

True Rapiers were not designed to cut: A true rapier with a thick hexagonal cross-section blade is incapable of making any slicing wounds by draw cut on the skin of the meat, and a few edge blows delivered from the elbow are also of no effect. We would have liked to have tried tip cuts at full speed but did not want to risk it.


What the Rapier is designed to do, and what it excels at, is to smoothly and effortlessly deliver a lethal thrust:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzAEOHrT5WU&feature=related

Please also see Renaissance Martial Arts, the Web Documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWJnKDTEaes

Category:

Sports

Tags:

• ARMA
• sword
• Rapier
• RMA
• test cutting
• Historical Fencing
• Western Martial Arts

[rapierlynx]

If rapiers can't cut, why did Saviolo and Meyer, among others, spend so much time in their books teaching how to cut with a rapier?

[ihaterobbie123]

@rapierlynx

They were probably talking in a fencing context, say if the rule was first to draw any blood anywhere then slashed would be useful and safer.

[Zwerchhau]

@ihaterobbie123 "fencing" in this time period did not mean the modern sport/game. "Fencing" meant the full combative system employed, often with lethal affect. Please see Capo Ferro for some nice examples of Rapier through the head, for a better idea of what "fencing" meant in the 17th century.

[Zwerchhau]

@rapierlynx because Saviolo and Meyer are both instructing in the earlier Cut and Thrust sword form, not the later True Rapier format that has no significant cutting capability.

[Zwerchhau]

Rapier's were not designed to pierce armour. They are incapable of doing this. They were used in an unarmoured civilian context. Causing skin laceration is not "cutting" to cut effectively with a weapon means that that cut wills top the opponent. A rapier will not do this with a cut. The sabre did not develop from the rapier, the sabre developed from various broadswords and backswords.

[demfings]

It nots meant to be able to cut its made for stabing read the description

[CoIdHeat]

@rapierlynx why shouldn't a rapier have cutting capabilities? Basically its the same principle as with a sword only slim and more lightweight and still far from being a "thrust only" epee.

[yellowvespa04]

the term "rapier" as it stands is no more or less descriptive than "broadsword." You need to look at the physical aspects of any one weapon itself, not its "groping." the physical aspects of any sword weren't developed over night nor were any systems of fence. so can a rapier cut? hell, a car antenna can cut. is it practical to do so? that's the debate. that's also why the later manuscripts instruct cuts as harassing actions to draw time. if it lands? great. now put the point through his eye.

[RayneRockstar]

@Zwerchhau English and Prussian cavalry sabres developed from the Hindu talwar, wich developed from Persian shamshirs, wich reached Korea from where the Japanese based the katana.

It all begun in the middle east.

[arrkhal]

This video is also great for showing how rigid historical blades are, compared to modern ones. Even cut and thrust repros are often more flexible than this antique rapier. That stiffness is also the reason for modern foil scoring rules. A thrust to the face by a rapier foil could easily knock out teeth, blind you, or worse (in an age before safety equips), and blows to the hands could break fingers. Blows to the limbs would be tricky to "score," thus the torso remains as the only scoring region.

[rapierlynx]

@ihaterobbie, It's obvious that the period manuals weren't written in a sporting context. Meyer (written in 1570) says a proper thrust starts has all of the body weight behind it. Saviolo talks about how to conduct duels, which often ended in death.

Also, people on their feet don't act like meat on a string. All of the cut energy goes into the flesh, not into moving the meat. A rapier may not sever limbs like a longsword, but it can easily cut through muscles or small bones like ribs.

[TwigletWoof]

The rapier is designed to be a thrusting weapon, to pierce someones chest and strike the lungs