A point about shieldwalls

This may address many of the comments I had for my spears video. Many of my theories are based on the I think fairly reliable notion that people in the past were similar to people today in that they tended towards a desire for self-preservation, and away from reckless bravery.

www.LloydianAspects.co.uk

Category:

Education

Tags:

• shieldwall
• spear
• hoplite
• warfare
• ancient
• medieval
• knife
• battle
• push
• fight

[ForeverNoobie]

If a man will stand on the front lines of a phalanx at all then I wouldn't put anything past him. Really it's pretty much certain slow and painful death any way you look at it. If you're willing to charge forward to be cut open, and be trampled underfoot by a thousand men while you bleed to death, is a pushing match before hand really that unthinkable?

[lindybeige]

@ForeverNoobie Most men given the options of certain imminent death and probable delayed death will pick the latter.

[Mehow80]

If you stand in the front line then certainly you don't want to get close to the guys in front of you. However there are 7 lines of guys behind you who will push you forward with their own momentum and it is possible that eventually the fighting will turn into the pushing contest simply because the lads behind you keep pressing forward.

[lindybeige]

@Mehow80 "Stop pushing at the back! Stop pushing at the back! STOP PUSHING AT THE BACK!"

[ShadowForge762]

For a while, I was wondering why there was a "green-screen" effect on your edges while you were talking. Then your helper arrived and my face went all :D

[lindybeige]

@OMGWTFBBQ357 It's a balance between these opposing forces. The trick is to pick the best balance in the context of what the enemy is doing.

[MartinTheReader]

Cont:

After some time one side normally feels an advantage though and decides to push it, and charge. If the charge is well coordinated they can actually punch a whole in the enemy formation, basically just pushing the fighters off balance and out off the way. If that fails the normal thing is to back off again, because stadning that close is suicide. Sometimes you end up standing that way for some time though, again with the back ranks doing the killing and the front ranks trying to survive.

[MartinTheReader]

Now my experience, however small it is, from the few reenactment battles I've fought is that if both sides are evenly matched on one part of the terrain they will stand at a distance to each other and exchange blows for a while. The way I've fought the people in the very first rank are standing behind their shields and warding off all blows they can while the second and third ranks do the killing, working in teams, one man to draw attention the other to kill those who focus on the wrong weapon.

[OliverOReye]

i stand with you on this one i also dont believe the men back then where stupid enough to just march right into their faces and push each other, my theory is that at the start the strategy of the phalanx formation is to close up having the first line of men with spears in a rather low position and then have the second line of men with their spears over their shields making it a true wall of spears from top to bottom, when encountering an other phalanx then they would push and quickly thrust.

[loadedClownZ]

the greeks didnt use their shields only for protection but they were also a weapon to bash to enemy to death

[Lokarsh21]

I think a further argument in favor of the points made in the video is that stronger, more experienced, older and better drilled veterans were in the front rows... and they would die, if the battle was fought pushing at each others like rams or goats. So would a leader stand in the front row (I think generally on the right?). I doubt it and so wouldn't his best men. Also, I read in comments "medieval chaotic battles" ...Medieval battles were not chaotic. Not more then any other.

[GPlinthon]

@lindybeige What you describe has some logic. But you have to keep in mind that even lax medieval anarchic warfare often included push matches so guess how match a tight formation like the phalanx. However, you are right to say that not always you had a push match.

What I suggest is that the push match was rather just a small phase of the battle, often as little as 1-2 minutes. Soon ranks break (often both sides) and there starts the real spear-battle. Swords were last resort.

[GPlinthon]

@eXcommunicate1979 The short swords was not a Spartan tradition particularly. They were indeed effective in the initial push. You have to picture this. You are in the first line wearing and carrying 18 kilos of weaponry. You approach jogging in rythm and you fall against the enemy. You CANNOT STOP 5m before collision and even if the plan was so the enemy will not stop but fall on you. The first minute you will have a pushing match but the battle does not end there, this is just the beginning.