MiG-21

Old Russian Aircraft Mig-21

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Howto & Style

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• Russian
• Aircraft
• Russia
• Mig
• Mig-21

[darkcorsair247]

such an awesome airplane

[desertghostsa]

I love this airplane .

[Ariana321]

@BitnikGr Well in the Phantoms, yeah. There was honestly only so much you could do with that thing, especially when it originally had no gun and unreliable missiles. And it was no dogfighter either. Hell, most of the best Israeli pilots weren't even flying Phantoms back in those wars, they were flying old French Mirage III or "Neshr" fighters, which were Israeli copies of the Mirage V. They trained different than our pilots though, they focused more on dogfighting than overreliance on missiles.

[BitnikGr]

@Ariana321 I wouldn't call it "night and day" exactly. Even if we try to underestimate USAF, USMC and USN pilots deliberately then they are sure in TOP 5 or even in TOP 3 Air Forces, basing on experience and training. Together with Israeli and Hellenic Air Forces. Success of Israeli Phantoms is mostly based on that they meet incapable Arab pilots or Soviet rookies. Not that Israeli pilots were much more better than US pilots in Vietnam.

[Ariana321]

@BitnikGr The difference between Israeli and American pilots though is like night and day. I mean, speaking as an American here, and no offense intended to any of my fellow countrymen here, but our pilots aren't anywhere near their league. Honestly, not many are.

Honestly, our pilots in general are lacking compared to many other nations, but I fault that to the fact that our leaders still listen to the same "experts" who keep saying that the close range dogfight is a thing of the past.

[BitnikGr]

@SAMFICOM ...

So, as you see there are plenty of reasons why number of kills and losses won't be ever agreed, especially when war is so long as Vietnam war was.

The latest numbers presented by Russians, speaking strictly about MiG-21 vs F-4 presents 102:54 kill in favor of MiGs. So, it's definitely isn't 3:1.

From the other hand, Egyptian, Syrian and even Soviet MiG-21s with inexperienced pilots suffered big losses inflicted by same Phantoms of IAF.

[BitnikGr]

@SAMFICOM ...

4) In furious battle with multiple bandits pilots don't always have time to watch the faith of plane they just attacked and hit. Wounded plane can be attacked by another plane on its return to base. So, same kill can be counted twice.

5) During war years propaganda always work on full scale. Soviet and Vietnamese sources were claiming kills of 360 Phantoms (by all means). After half of century, declassified US archives present number of 700 Phantoms lost in Vietnam.

...

[BitnikGr]

@SAMFICOM ... as these were entire losses. People forget that except USN, Phantoms were also in service with USMC and USAF.

3) Another reason is a lack of objective controls. Phantom can absorb a lot of punishment. Since it didn't hit the ground it doesn't count in Vietnam as a kill. But it returns back to base with extensive damages beyond repair and gets retired as a combat loss. And Phantom is famous for its toughness and rigid structure. It saved lives to many pilots.

...

[BitnikGr]

@SAMFICOM 1) The main reason is that traditionally in human history fighting sides always try to exaggerate losses of their enemy and to reduce their own losses.

2) Other factor is "playing with numbers". For example, Phantom is nicknamed as "MiG killer", but most of the times its score includes all types of MiGs. 15/17/19/21 and not only 21.

Another example is in US documentary speaking with Navy officer who says "We lost only 74 Phantoms in Vietnam". This makes wrong impression...

[BitnikGr]

/watch?v=Re3VCL7dczE

With English subtitles

[pacus123]

@SAMFICOM It is important to note the roles of the two fighters. The Mig 21's role was to primarily take out the bombers. The F4s job was to take out the Mig 21. So understandably the Migs shot down more US aircraft overall but the F4s probably shot down more migs.

[serbiansaber1]

@SAMFICOM I believe that Mig's 3:1 is to all American aircraft, and F4's 2:1 is against Mig 21