President Obama, and Torture in the United States

im referring to this video about the pastor and youtube-user sanderson1611 being tazered: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUzd7G875Hc

im reading out a part of the introduction to "standing up to the madness, ordinary heroes in extraordinary times" by Amy Goodman and David Goodman, a book that i can highly recommend.

Amy Goodman is host of "Democracy Now!", an independent news program reporting 5 days a week, 1 hour per program. Amy Goodman, among others, also won the nobel peace prize in 2008. go to www.democracynow.org and take a look.

Category:

News & Politics

Tags:

• torture
• united
• states
• tazer
• waterboard
• waterboarding
• blackbox
• pepper
• spray
• george
• w.
• bush
• dick
• cheney
• barack
• obama
• sanderson1611
• amy
• goodman

[threebobs]

Appeal to practicality isn't an appeal at all...except for moral relativism...which is a self-contradictory moral theory by definition.

The only truly rational ethical theory is UPB, put forward by Stefan Molyneux. Good it. I think they're giving away the audio book for free.

[kurtilein3]

threebobs: i dont know much about what stefan molineux says about ethics. but some of what he promotes is just nonsense. let me quote from his website:

"Some people also respond that certain services must be provided by the government, like roads or education or healthcare or old-age pensions. Again, this is utterly irrelevant. If I steal $100 from you, and then send $20 to my grandmother, or use it to pay for a road, this does not absolve me of the crime of theft."

smells like nonsense.

[nosp4rrow]

I am genuinely frightened about the fact that these instances of torture in the US didn't get more media coverage. That particular "don't taze me, bro" incident turned into a pop culture punchline instead of a of a nationwide outrage - and this guy was only exercising his right to free speech! We are kept much more docile in the US than people realize; between religion's brainwashing and the media's lies, we are becoming drooling, impotent, vegetables. Thank you for the excellent video.

[Mithcoriel]

I seem to remember he's German.

And it doesn't really matter what his ancestors did. That doesn't change his right to speak up against wrong today. It would be like saying "An American can't criticize slavery cause they used to have it themselves"

[spartaeus]

A little torture is just the tip of the iceburg. America is run by and for Global Corporations. Citizens have no say so in America. This is a facist country! Corporations fund the election of who they want as their puppet. We are a representative republic in name only.

[threebobs]

And finally:

The UDHR is also invalid as a moral code:

How do the following declarations coexist?

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and property"

"Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free."

Education can't be free. It is a product and service. That means others must be forced (deprived of their liberty and property ) to supply this "free" service.

Until we demand our political thinkers to have the same consistency as a bridge builder, we're screwed.

[threebobs]

Proposing that as an ethical theory is like proposing a theory of gravity that a rock falls up and down at the same time.

If torture is wrong, then it's one the grounds that other people have the right to freedom from violence.  But for the state to exist, it must violate this, by definition.

You say you're against torture, but by supporting Statism and taxation, you support the initiation of violence against people who aren't advocating violence against you.

It is an invalid moral stance.

[threebobs]

If people cant cooperate to solve problems voluntarily, the LAST thing you should do is give a small group of them the right to: use violence to force payment, print money, start wars and monopolize thousands of services.

The state doesnt exist, only people do. The state just a label for people who claim the moral right to use violence to solve problems. But the people in the government ARE PEOPLE too. How can they have moral rights that I don't have?

[threebobs]

2) If people are too stupid or selfish to be allowed to voluntarily solve these problems...how can people be trusted with: 1) voting on the use of OTHER people's property and 2) being in a monopoly that can force payment?

You say "markets can't supply these goods, But that is not an argument, it's just a statement, like "I like blue".

Monopoly is bad for consumers. But you claim there are magic areas where monopoly is fantastic. Where's the reasoning in that?

[threebobs]

4) in the countries you've mentioned above, the state has destroyed 97 % of the value of the currency.

But I won't go there.

The most efficient way to debate this is with axiomatic logical principals that we both accept.

By your own premises, you have disproved your own thesis.

1) If the majority of people in a democracy are wise and willing to vote to pay money to buy these goods/services , then we know that in a free market situation, the majority will STILL want these things.

[threebobs]

There are many many ways to approach this debate.

I could point out that:

1) the standard of life improvements that you attribute to Statism are the direct result of wealth creation due to free markets.

2) you are making a basic economic fallacy of failing to account for the massive destruction of wealth and freedom due to the face that government is a violent monopoly.

3)that 370,000,000 people have been killed by government "protection" agencies. (100s of times more than private crime)

[kurtilein3]

... continued

the areas that are the closest to truly and fully recognizing all the human rights are also the areas where life expectancy and overall quality of life is the best. and its just a fact that we are talking about states here. to be more precise: representative democracies, where people have many ways to influence the process and governing is difficult, that adopt the human rights and that make things like healthcare and education their top priorities.

[kurtilein3]

threebobs:

i consider the 1948 united nations universal declaration of human rights to be the most important document of our age. i really do think that if the human rights would be valued everywhere, we would all be better off.

education and healthcare are human rights. free markets cannot provide these services, and Molyneux is wrong when he claims otherwise. (to be continued)

[threebobs]

continued...

UPB, as an ethical framework, takes ethics out of the subjective and put it squarely in the realm of a scientific theory.

When you read it, you will see why political systems must create wars, poverty and conflict. This is because Statism is a self-contradictory ethical framework.

He also has a shorter, easier to read free audio book called "Everyday Anarchy".

I'd suggest that one first.

It'll take you 3 hours max.

If you'd rather debate me, that's fine.