Peter Kreeft___www.envoyinstitute.net

Fragment wykładu profesora Petera Kreefta na konferencji zorganizowanej przez Envoy Institute w Belmont Abbey College w Belmont, NC

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• truckerhiob

[herbiepop]

Yes I agree.

[cccalhoun]

Herbiepop, If you regard god as amoral and even if youre right and god is amoral, it would reduce god himself and god would no longer be god. Or a hell and even human suffering for that matter.

[havock89]

You are using mortal law and natural law on the only "thing" that should have divine law applied to it.

[truckerhiob]

I agree, "all gods are subjective", however The God is not one of "all gods". We create all gods, but He, the true God, created whole Universe.

And trust me, Kreeft is capable of formulating much better arguments then I. I even struggle with writing in English

Kreeft has excellent lecture on existence of God. Is free to listen or download from his site, peterkreeftdotcom. I strongly recommend it. It may change your life.

[herbiepop]

I think that you will find that all gods are subjective. Few believers, outside of the hysteria of religious gatherings, can agree on the exact nature of their gods.

Kreeft is no more capable of formulating a coherent argument than you are.

[truckerhiob]

First of all, my god is God with capitol G. And He isnt mine, He is The God. Second, it doesnt matter a bit what you think about Him. It will not change Him, nor reality. Im not interesting in your definition what is and what is not moral. Morality is an objective value, not someones opinion. That is all I can say. I recommend to you any book Peter Kreeft wrote. He will explain that much better then I.

[herbiepop]

Given your description of your understanding of god I regard him as amoral. The essential part of your argument fails because I don't regard your god's decrees as moral. I do not derive my sense of morality from your god. In fact such a coercive being I would rather regard as evil or at least capricious.

[truckerhiob]

God is what He is, and when He created Universe with rational creatures like angels and people, He reveled to us what is moral and what is good. Otherwise we wouldnt even know that concept, like computer doesnt know and understand what moral is. Unless someone program it to do so.

[truckerhiob]

I don't try to proof anything. And I don't claim that I can understand God. If I could, He wouldn't be God. I'm only saying, that all morality as we know it is from God. If not for Him, we couldn't call anything moral, or unmoral. If we are products of "automatic evolution", concept of morality has no sense.

[herbiepop]

Can you explain what you mean by morality in the absence of men and 'angels'? If not your argument that God is moral is worthless. You are in fact saying that God is something we don't understand but to make a point I'm saying that it is related to our morality. Hence you can't use it as a proof of anything.