John Piper - Believing is the Evidence of the New Birth

"Faith: Unique and Fruitful Effect of the New Birth"
February 17, 2008

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[jwuonog]

This made me so excited. The Gospel is exciting. Christ made me alive.

[illbehonest]

Amen. So true the scripture is.

[MusickDan]

Sorry, but Greek is not as specific as English. For example, scholars can't agree on the translation of a simple participle phrase in Phil. 2:6, "ὃς...ὑπάρχων." NASB: "who, although He existed," ESV: who, though he was," ESV: "Who, being." Had Paul written in modern English the meaning would be clear. I would not want my last will written in Greek.

Faith precedes and is a condition for life and regeneration, e.g., John 3:7, 16, 3:36, 5:24, 6:40, 11:25, 20:21; Col. 2:12, 1 Tim. 1:16, Eph. 2:1-8.

[ronathanedwards]

@MusickDan Like I said before Dan, English doesn't mean anything. You have to show me where in the exact construct given it DOESN'T mean it is a cause/effect. Not only that, but you have to give an argumentation why it ISN'T for some reason in 5:1 but then John uses it as cause/effect for 2:29;3:9;4:7;5:4;5:18 ? The very same author AND the same letter! You're fighting a lost battle my friend. You also didn't answer my question, why does JOhn use a Father/Born/Child analogy?Why use "fertilize"?

[MusickDan]

@ronathanedwards Always? Show me in Greek how the perfect is always the CAUSE and the ongoing EFFECT is the PRESENT tense. I've demonstrated in English that they aren't.

[ronathanedwards]

Everyone bleeding has been shot. The ongoing EFFECT is not "shooting" being done at the present moment, but the BLEEDING is the effect, the cause is the shot in the PAST, it's result is present bleeding.

Again the analogy is ALWAYS connected with BIRTH with the father "generating or fertilizing". The analogy makes no sense if one says; one is born in order to be fertilized.What's the STANDARD for salvation in the letter?

Belief? Or is that just one of the RESULTS? 1 JO 2:29;3:9;4:7; 5:1,4,18

[ronathanedwards]

@MusickDan Well... I'm just guessing, but you only took 1 year of Koine Greek? Aktionsart is the "putting together" of different tenses within the same clause to understand how their force (aspect) properly interact with each other.

This REALLY can't be done in English, it's too vague a language.

Every embryo growing has been fertilized by the father. THAT is reason John (and Jesus) used that analogy. Gegennatai means to fertilize, generate. What happened first, the growing or fertilization?

[MusickDan]

@ronathanedwards Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἐστιν ὁ Χριστὸς ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται...

12 Words. Show me where the present participle πιστεύων has to follow the perfect tense indicative γεγέννηται, or that "the perfect is the CAUSE and the ongoing EFFECT is the PRESENT tense." I've never heard that. I studied classical Greek in college and Koine Greek in grad school.

[ronathanedwards]

@MusickDan Wheaton College Grad and that's the understanding you have of the Greek? Do you know Greek? Do you understand aktionsart? The FORCE and aspect of perfect tense is a CAUSE in the PAST that has present and continuing EFFECTS. A perfect tense is not in a vacuum. In the sentence it is joined with a present tense. This is where Greek is much more precise than English. The perfect is the CAUSE and the ongoing EFFECT is the PRESENT tense.

Your arguments using English only muddy your waters.

[MusickDan]

@ronathanedwards "Has been justified (and this justification continues)" probably better represents the Greek force, but this has no bearing on my premise. This may help.

1. Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God (and this life continues). (1 John 5:1) Which comes first - believing or being born of God?

2. Everyone who attends Bethlehem Church has been impacted (and this impact continues) by John Piper's preaching. Which comes first - attending or being impacted?

[ronathanedwards]

@MusickDan You are also making a statement understanding it from the ENGLISH, this also leads you to misunderstand not only the verse, but your own premise and making it an un-biblical statement.

UN-biblical - Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been justified.

Biblical - Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ IS Justified.

Your conclusion doesn't stand, mine does.

You confuse the FORCE of the perfect in the Greek with the common understanding of the English.

[MusickDan]

@ronathanedwards I was not quoting Scripture. I simply asked if the statement is true. Is it? If it is, then the conclusion stands.