..Most of these so-called "early church fathers" were in fact Gnostic anyway, If you want to separate fact from fiction read the books written by the real "Church Fathers"....the Apostles of Jesus Christ.
...This is why Protestants reject virgin worship...because Mary had other kids ...after Jesus. This whole penchant for virgins in nonsense.
how many church fathers were there and how far do you go back?
And the Bible demonstrates that one is born again first and then baptized...matter of fact the thief on the cross wasn't baptized. And how come the eucharist still remains a wafer after being concencrated, if it's suppose to have changed to an actual body?
There is no ref to wine in the Lord's supper, tho I have no objection to it, partic if u are going to pass around one cup -- stronger the better! Kindly obey Hezekiah 9:6 "Thou shalt not shoot canon balls at canary birds."
I like matzos because they symbolize the stripes & piercings of Christ's body along with no leaven, no sin.
@Thunkful2 Transubstantiation (TS) is not synonymous with the Real Presence (RP). TS describes how the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ. It took centuries and the development of philosophy to describe the nature of the change in substance (i.e. that the accidents remain but the substance has changed). The reality of the RP has existed since Jesus instituted the Eucharist. Why would Ignatius of Antioch call the Eucharist the 'Medicine of Immortality' it it were a mere symbol?
@Thunkful2 Not sure why talk about wine, drugs, cigars or caves when you have a lot of deeper issues you should be tackling. Read 1 Cor 11 in context and then tell me that they didn't drink wine. Also, there is no requirement that the Lord's supper be with wine. You can use anything that can give symbolism to blood. Remember, after all, it was only a SYMBOL. Further, if you will be strict about these things, I will then ask, where does the bible say he took a wafer? lol
It is tough to follow exactly what Cl of Alex means in ur long quote. Let me make a suggestion, post your arguments at BibleAndTheology. com where there is an open forum & plenty of room to post as long a message as you wish. It is tough to do it in these little boxes. I didn't see anything in ur quote that says, "A man can be regenerated Y get the gift of eternal life & have it taken back from him."
since this is not God's Word anyway, its value is quite limited.
@drop U say "This debate started a long time before Augustine." Isn't that an admission that among persons who called themselves Christians, there was disagreement? If so then the selection of some professed Christians to call "Church Fathers" & others mere non-fatherly Christians or heretics begs the question. I, myself, don't call anyone a "Church Father" who denies the perseverence of the saints, for that is what it means to trust Christ as Savior:I trust Him to keep me from perishing & save.
..Most of these so-called "early church fathers" were in fact Gnostic anyway, If you want to separate fact from fiction read the books written by the real "Church Fathers"....the Apostles of Jesus Christ.
...This is why Protestants reject virgin worship...because Mary had other kids ...after Jesus. This whole penchant for virgins in nonsense.
vachief 2 weeks ago
how many church fathers were there and how far do you go back?
And the Bible demonstrates that one is born again first and then baptized...matter of fact the thief on the cross wasn't baptized. And how come the eucharist still remains a wafer after being concencrated, if it's suppose to have changed to an actual body?
shanana000 5 months ago
@reformedman
There is no ref to wine in the Lord's supper, tho I have no objection to it, partic if u are going to pass around one cup -- stronger the better! Kindly obey Hezekiah 9:6 "Thou shalt not shoot canon balls at canary birds."
I like matzos because they symbolize the stripes & piercings of Christ's body along with no leaven, no sin.
Thunkful2 6 months ago
@Thunkful2 Transubstantiation (TS) is not synonymous with the Real Presence (RP). TS describes how the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ. It took centuries and the development of philosophy to describe the nature of the change in substance (i.e. that the accidents remain but the substance has changed). The reality of the RP has existed since Jesus instituted the Eucharist. Why would Ignatius of Antioch call the Eucharist the 'Medicine of Immortality' it it were a mere symbol?
wbowersox87 7 months ago
@OneTrueChurch Give me your refs to where transubstantiation was taught in the apostolic fathers.
Thunkful2 8 months ago
@Thunkful2 Not sure why talk about wine, drugs, cigars or caves when you have a lot of deeper issues you should be tackling. Read 1 Cor 11 in context and then tell me that they didn't drink wine. Also, there is no requirement that the Lord's supper be with wine. You can use anything that can give symbolism to blood. Remember, after all, it was only a SYMBOL. Further, if you will be strict about these things, I will then ask, where does the bible say he took a wafer? lol
reformedman 8 months ago
@dropt
It is tough to follow exactly what Cl of Alex means in ur long quote. Let me make a suggestion, post your arguments at BibleAndTheology. com where there is an open forum & plenty of room to post as long a message as you wish. It is tough to do it in these little boxes. I didn't see anything in ur quote that says, "A man can be regenerated Y get the gift of eternal life & have it taken back from him."
since this is not God's Word anyway, its value is quite limited.
Thunkful2 8 months ago
@drop U say "This debate started a long time before Augustine." Isn't that an admission that among persons who called themselves Christians, there was disagreement? If so then the selection of some professed Christians to call "Church Fathers" & others mere non-fatherly Christians or heretics begs the question. I, myself, don't call anyone a "Church Father" who denies the perseverence of the saints, for that is what it means to trust Christ as Savior:I trust Him to keep me from perishing & save.
Thunkful2 8 months ago