Thoughts on the Burka (Reply to XOmniverse)

My 4 cents on the topic of whether or not Burkas should be outlawed, (in response to Oxmniverse and Pat Condell.)

Pat Condell's original videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlkxlzTZc48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4FpTvp0tgs

OMniverse's video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2-hbi2inZU

Opening music: Underneath the Stars by The Cure

Category:

Education

Tags:

• burka
• islam
• freedom
• liberty
• libertarianism
• Pat
• Condell
• Oxmniverse

[amlorusso]

I'd like to thank you for your video, it offers a perspective I've never heard before. The argument is for a convenient tool to identify coercion by using coercion, presumably to help coerced women. This idea and it's opposite if implemented in all legal jurisdictions will result in a world where either women are forced to wear burkas or are forced not to wear burkas. Where do you think the male burka coercers (with their women) will move to? The cultures that are even more oppressive to women.

[SisyphusRedeemed]

@amlorusso "Where do you think the male burka coercers (with their women) will move to?"

Believe it or not, as much as those men may wish to force their women to wear burkas there are other factors that will influence their decision about where they are going to live. Most people--even misogynistic Muslims--aren't 'single issue movers.'

[randomsonnet]

As it happens, I do agree that nudists should be allowed personal expression in their manner of dress or undress as the case may be.

Wearing an item that obscures your identity is another issue, agreed. However treating everyone as a criminal because of the actions of a few seems unjust.

As for oppression it seems hypocritical to oppress one group (legitimate wearers) to prevent another being oppressed.

Maybe ban it, but it's an issue we should approach with care.

I just don't know.

[SisyphusRedeemed]

I agree it should be approached with care. I don't know, either. I'm far from sold on the position I advocate here, I just think it's an argument that needed to be made.

[THC1989]

(continued) Simply outlawing a public symptom of this subjugation doesn't really change anything. If a dominant husband will only allow his submissive wife to be seen in public, if she wears a certain piece of clothing, then outlawing that piece of cloth in the public space will most likely not change his mind, but instead limit her from entering the public space.

[THC1989]

Correct me if I'm wrong. Your argument seems to be that we need to impose a dress code, so that other people won't be allowed to impose a dress code. That is to say that: We as a society need to tell women what they are not allowed to wear, so that their husbands can't tell them what to wear. Doesn't it seem contradictory? If you wish to address that someone is being subjugated against his or her will, then that is what needs addressing.

[pascalyuiop]

Your argument is pretty good, at it least it seems that way to me. Ignoring the common mislabelling of female Islamic dress (the burka is not the one with the eye slit, if memory serves), it seems pretty harmless for those who choose to wear it, and unlike the ski mask, there's no real danger. What's really needed is a culture and society where those who are forced feel comfortable speaking out and seeking help. Under those conditions, making it illegal to force women to wear it would be viable.

[zippythewildone]

Nudists aren't allowed to be nude in public so they form camps. So, what do you think is going to happen with burkas? If Muslims start forming Muslim camps where their women cannot leave the camp because they have to wear burkas this will make life even harder for the women that are being forced into wearing burkas because they will be forced to be immersed in ideals that they may be starting to question. If they ever try to leave who is going to help them?

[thargor2k]

@MrNevertime Though the burka is not the real problem, IMHO every step away from this oppressive culture is a win and helps to bring forth further change.

[thargor2k]

I'm not completely convinced by your argument. I see it as making the case for women not wearing the burka out of salidarity. But I don't see it providing a reason to outlaw the burka. We have many things that provide cover in that sense, even marriage can provide a framework for abuse, e.g. forced marriage, but we still don't outlaw marriage.

[MrNevertime]

The bank argument seems pretty irrelevant when outside a bank and when in a bank I very much doubt 1 in a 100 burka wears would rob it. The problem women who are being forced to wear burkas have is the misogynistic, repressive environment they're trapped in, the burka is not their real problem. Its not enough to justify restricting or blaming consensual burka wears over. France of banned the vail which of course the burka is an extreme and rare version of. I would not ban the burka.

[amlorusso]

@SisyphusRedeemed Yeah you're right it isn't that simple, some would lock their women up, but that also means there is hope to change minds without using unprovoked force against someone, resulting in resentment not changed minds.

"Although I won't, if I banned the burka would you let the women go outside without one? If you would, what does that mean for your belief?"

Sure, they would probably rationalize their choice, but they'd have to look that choice straight in the eye, at least once.

[amlorusso]

@amlorusso And while the burka wearing coercer's motives could be said to be unfounded it does not alter that both camps want to use force against someone who isn't using force against anybody else. Immoral actions against individuals do not become moral when multiplied by any number. It just replaces one kind of immorality with another, it doesn't take it away.