This is what the Palestinian economy looks like

Documents the demolition of the marketplace in the town of Nazlat Isa, West Bank, Palestine, by Israeli military and border police. Shopkeepers rush to remove their merchandise before the demolition crew arrives. The marketplace is demolished. Caterpillar equipment is used by the Israelis to reduce the shops to rubble. Filmed in January 2003.

Category:

News & Politics

Tags:

• Palestine
• Israel
• Economy
• Demolition
• Collective
• Punishment
• Apartheid
• Injustice
• Opression

[jtellerelsberg]

This is not a refutation of what I said above. The creation and expansion of settlements hinders the/any peace process. Settlements can be closed. Indeed! That's what Israel ought to do more of, _if_ it is serious about wanting peace. Instead it continues with the opposite.

If you want the last word, it's all yours. I don't think either of us is convincing the other of anything. But hey, you've been kind enough to avoid ad hominem attacks, and for that I thank you. (Not sarcasm. For real.)

[jtellerelsberg]

Your math is off, but that's not the point. We clearly have more or less irreconcilable differences of opinion. You've spent a lot of time being aghast that I (or anyone) would support nonviolent resistance to a 50-year-old military occupation, yet you think blatantly illegal, not to mention counterproductive, settlements, imposed through deadly force, are just peachy keen. In the universe of rights and justice, we come from different planets.

[jtellerelsberg]

You started with "just choose peace" and you keep saying it--and though you'll refuse to believe it, that's entirely what I'm hoping for as well. I'd like Palestinians to choose peace and I'd like Israelis to choose peace. One big difference between your perception and mine is the extent to which we think Israelis have capacity or obligation in this regard. Do you or do you not think Israelis should also choose peace? Every new settlement expansion is an act of violence, a vote against peace.

[jtellerelsberg]

It's absurd to think that the Palestinians' continued reluctance to accept Israelis terms is due to "western arrogance in indulging fantasies of Arab vicitimization." Really? A few marginalized malcontents in the West have so much moral sway over the Ps that the Ps choose decades of suffering over some achievable peace, merely to bask in the glory of others' indulgent fantasies? I'm sure you could use that as basis for some bunk PhD dissertation but as a description of reality, it's laughable.

[jtellerelsberg]

Right or wrong, Khartoum in 1967 was 43 years ago. Unlike some others, I have never been wholly opposed to the separation wall in principle--it was clear to me from the start of its construction that it would reduce attacks from the West Bank, and in that it was A-OK with me since I've always found those attacks abhorrent. But it is also clear that Israel is using the wall not only to establish better security, but also to seize land outside any negotiation process; to disposess and punish.NotOK

[jtellerelsberg]

Follow up: I don't know if your comment is a response to the ongoing conversation or to the video. The video documents the Israeli military definitively NOT choosing peace, rather, choosing to violently destroy the economic base of a Palestinian town in the West Bank. The Palestinians protested this, as you can surely understand, but totally nonviolently. So in this case, the P's chose peace--but not subservience--while the I's chose aggressive violence. What's so complicated about that for you?

[jtellerelsberg]

If by "you" you mean me, you don't know what I think of the Camp David offer or any of the others. Not that it really matters, since I don't get a say in the decision. Meantime, I'll hazard to guess it's the same "damned complicated" quesiton for the Israelis, who have had 50+ years to choose peace and stop building settlements, to stop blocking farmers from their land, etc. None of those actions has had anything at all to do with Israeli security. Do you know the full details of these "offers"?

[jtellerelsberg]

I'd hazard to guess that mutual respect broke down many decades ago. Me: grew up and con't to live in the US. Was standard issue zionist in youth. About time that Oslo process started I began doubting "Israel good, Palestine bad" concept I previously had. Edward Said's writings helped, but my change of heart started before I'd ever heard of him. Read a lot. In 1998 spent summer at Birzeit U to have chance to see situation first hand. Returned to WB in 2003 with ISM. Took video then.

[praise139]

I am always glad to hear recommendations for good books. I would, however, like to hear a bit of your background. How are you involved in this issue? I live in the region, and my opinions are (hopefully) informed by the news AND personal reports from both sides. If you taped this, you obviously have some of the same experience. I would like to know more.

The worst part of the Palestinian situation is in my opinion the breakdown of mutual respect across both lines. That is what grieves me most.

[jtellerelsberg]

1. Thank you very much for maintaining a respectful debate! That's not often the case in these comment wars. I really do appreciate it.

2. Blame all problems on the Israelis? For sure, not. But Gaza has nothing remotely approaching "statehood." It is a massive prison. The only change is that the Israeli guards moved to outside the walls (most of the time).

3. May I recommend some books that might challenge your understanding of the "direct response to years of aggressive behavior from the..."?