Ayn Rand is an extremist

She presents false choices from either extreme

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[filmaker04]

First I like to thank you for thinking. We need more people to think.  You put yourself out here and allow the world to shape your thinking, the confession within. Clearly you are unsure of your position. The altruistic position you credit to evolution is only true for family values. Rand did not experience this, thus she is inexperienced showing it. The trouble is not objective philosophy, the trouble is the idea that men need a leader (a daddy) to care for them once they are adults.

[j0hnwi11iams]

@filmaker04 All men need others in order to remain sane. One of the worst and most damaging psychological methods of torture is solitary confinement. We are not talking about a caretaker, we are talking about peers - much like the scientific community is a network of peers. The ways in which a degree of altruism is ingrained into our nature is easily shown through MRI and other scans that have identified where altruism takes place in normal human beings, such as mirror neurons.

[AlexanderEBott]

Which will you choose? If you decide that man does have a right to his own life, you will come to the conclusion that to uphold any sort of policy that abrogates his decisions by the collective as an utter contempt to such a right. If you accept altruism, man is no longer protected, he can be discarded if any one deems it necessary. Do you think that would be a surprise? He has no rights, right?

[j0hnwi11iams]

@AlexanderEBott There are rights and then there are privileges. Property is an artifice supported by a monopolistic police state. I am of the opinion that there are two types of property, resources and labor. Man is entitled and has the right to the fruits of his labor, but owning resources is a privilege. I fully support civil rights, but the libertarian view of property rights is incomplete and extreme.

[AlexanderEBott]

Who's economy, who's environment? You speak of these abstractions as if they are concretes. The economy, for example, is a concept used to refer to individuals producing goods in a particular geographic region.

Ayn Rand was an extremist. At a political level she offered you a choice. Either acknowledge man's inalienable right to his own life, or accept the altruistic demands that he sacrifice it on whatever scale it is asked of him at a given time.

[j0hnwi11iams]

@AlexanderEBott For a cult that rejects all philosophical works after Aristotle, I can say that objectivism does not represent enlightened self interest. That is because it is not enlightened. Evolution has provided man with an instinct that is altruistic to a degree and science is discovering the extent to which enlightened self interest goes beyond calculating the effect of every decision on an individual's net worth. Evolution has been at it far longer than objectivists.

[dffykvn]

Did you research Ayns admiration of Hickman?

She loved Hickman for his self interest...you know how he murdered that girl

She was crazy because of her sheer admiration of sociopaths

Also she was a pretty shitty writer

Her characters weren't realistic and didn't seem human

Also a SEVENTY PAGE monologue? seriously?

And finally the entire book was about how the poor are horrible for wanting a free lunch...and wasn't that one guys nvention an infinte energy "free lunch" machine?

[AlexanderEBott]

@dffykvn "You obviously dont know a thing about ayn and objectivist bullshit"

I have actually written a whole research paper on the fountainhead. And I have read most of her non-fiction as well as Leonard Peikoff's Ominous Parallels. So sure, I don't know a thing.

This last post of yours (and building up from previous posts) have been classic to bordering insane strawman arguments. You have completely misrepresented Ayn Rand's philosophy. That is grounds alone for losing this argument. End.

[dffykvn]

You obviously dont know a thing about ayn and objectivist bullshit

If Madoff pursued his "enlightened self interest" by robbing The Holocaust Museum blind then that bitch ayn would've approved of it

Your ideas have failed miserably every ****ing time they're implemented

I can show you real world examples where my ideas have succeeded in making peoples lives better

You have a horrific record of failure while I have a list of success after success, so do I win?

[AlexanderEBott]

@dffykvn Can you read? I have never said that lying your way to riches is moral. Get over yourself and whatever preconception you have of me or the philosophy I advocate. Read about it before making such ridiculous claims. Think about the connections your trying to make

"Yes he made the money using his ingenuity. I guess that'd make him a hero in your insane ass backwards society."

Come on!!!

I do not want a con artist Mecca, the more apt description of yours though is a paranoid Mecca.

[dffykvn]

You don't know how things work in the real world

And yes hideously rich

Madoff and the others became hideously rich by creating clever ponzi schemes

Madoff robbed the fucking holocaust museum

Yes he made the money using his ingenuity

I guess that'd make him a hero in your insane ass backwards society

I guess the guys that made the ponzi scheme that looted most of the chilean banks deserved to have all of that money because of their ingenious scam

You want a con artist Mecca

[AlexanderEBott]

@dffykvn AGREEMENT WITH THEIR EMPLOYEES (THEY KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW), ONE CAN DO THESE PROCESSES. Lying about what processes one has to go through, and the environment you will be working in is criminally punishable, even if nobody gets hurt. The government's job is not responsible for making your own decisions whether as a businessman or an employee. It is merely responsible for prosecuting people who initiate force (lie, cheat, steal, murder, etc.).

[AlexanderEBott]

@dffykvn "hideously rich" This is precisely the premise by which all of your arguments sprout from. You think that making money is not virtuous and that serving others is the moral ideal.

I think that making money is virtuous (productivity). Productivity stems from FREELY using your own mind to make decisions. Therefore one has a right to make their own decisions regarding their own business regardless of the safety of whatever processes they are going through. AS LONG AS ONE IS IN ...

[dffykvn]

Part 1 Are you being willfully ignorant?

She had extremist views because they were completely inflexible and she wouldn't care about evidence that she's wrong

But lets put it in the context of an idiot who takes ayn seriously

I gave you a list of places where ayns policies were disasters and destroyed countless lives/livelihoods to make a handful hideously rich

The difference between me and you is that I'm open to being proven wrong

Unfortunately for you evidence is on my side

[TreeLuvBurdpu]

@dffykvn "I'm in favor of some rigid positions where I'll hold my ground unless I can be proven wrong."

So Rand's "extremism" is the result of her not being proven wrong? Is that what you are saying?

You said she is an extremist because she is inflexible. You are inflexible, but only in areas where you can't be proven wrong. So she is an extremist because she is more inflexible than you, probably because she can't be proven wrong as often as it happens for you to be proven wrong. You're jealo

[dffykvn]

@TreeLuvBurdpu Really?!? Duh

He was just one of the scam artists

Bank of America, Lehman, Goldman Sachs, "Sir" Allen Stanford

They all used the climate of deregulation to their advantage to run financial scams

It's LEGAL for goldman to bet against deals they make

Thank you so much for repealing Glass Steagal Mr Gramm...you really did usher in a new era of financial innovation and creative accounting