Debate: Sam Shamoun -VS- SwordOfAllah/Rex *Good Quality* 2/6

Review and Commentary of the Trinity debate between Sam Shamoun and SwordofAllah(Khalid)/Islam-and-friends.
By Keith Thompson

Sam won this debate easily even though it was two against one.10-7 for Sam Shamoun.

On Rex's Opening Statement:

Rex claims that the Trinity is a "ficticious" concept that was introduced to certian sects at the council of Nicea. The council of Nicea however consisted of Bishops of thier own congregations assembling to combat Arius's heretical teachings about Christ being the first creation. Trinity was not developed there. Sam refutes this claim and notes that the Trinity is Biblical and that early church fathers used Trinitarian language prior to the council of Nicea thus destroying Rex's fabrication.

Polycarp (70-155). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

And Tertullian (160-215). An African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...[which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Rex then asserted that the Trinity is Illogical and accused Christians (maybe Sam) of taking verses out of context to prove the doctrine, or using verses that were later additions but provided no examples. He quoted John 14:28 out of context which Sam would put in context and refute in his first rebuttal.

On SwordOfAllah's Opening statement:

SwordOfAllah's first argument was taken from Ahmed Deedat and Zakir Naik which is. "Since Jesus never said "I am God" in those exact three words, therefore he is not God. However the first 13 chapters of Genesis do not contain anything like that either but no one doubts it is God speaking. Secondly, There is numerous evidences of Jesus' divinity which Sam noted from the old and new testament. There are many claims of Jesus' divinity from Jesus and the apostles. Here are a few example:

John 8:24 - "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins."

John 5:18 - "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"

Col. 2:9 - "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

SwordOfAllah then asserted that what Sam quoted were skewed interpretations but did not attempt to refute any passage Sam cited. Sword then said that God made man in his image and his comparable to that. I would agree. Man is body, spirit and mind. Three yet one. Just like God. Sword then brought up a few passages. He quotes Numbers 23:19 but mistakes it for Numbers 23:21. It states:

"God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

As Sam Shamoun writes: "None of those biblical texts say God CANNOT be a man, but say that God IS not a man, a major difference: It is true that during the Old Testament period God hadn'tt become a man, but this doesn'tt deny that God could choose to later become a man, specifically in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Hebrew Bible itself supports the view that God can become a man, without ceasing to be God, since there are places where God appeared in human form:..Genesis 18:1-5, 8-10a, 13-17, 20-26, 33."

Then in the question and answer period, after asking Sam to provide examples of where Jesus is God, Sword interrupts Sam when answering and tries to go on to another question. Sword complains about revelation because he thought it was a dream and when Sam tried to tell him to go to Bukhari to know that muhammad recieved revelation thorugh dreams, Sword started yelling and stated: "We aren't talking about Bukhari!!!"

Category:

Education

Tags:

• Jesus
• God
• Bible
• Trinity
• sam
• shamoun
• swordofallah
• islamandfriends
• allah
• satan
• muhammad
• james
• white
• david
• wood
• shabir
• ally

[m3sopotamian]

cant we just all get along

[KeithTruth]

@m3sopotamian are you suggesting Christians compromise the truth for the sake of your view of getting along?

[m3sopotamian]

@KeithTruth

not really mate, I am suggesting that we should just find god in our own way without any guiding doctrine or religious traditions in such a way the relationship between man and the divine becomes much more greater and personal that's my point. everyone should read about all religions, read of great psychologists, and other great thinkers, and then decide on what they believe "faith" is. wouldn't that solve the problem that monotheists argue about all day

[KeithTruth]

@m3sopotamian To abandon guiding doctrine starting at point zero coming to your own idea of God would be disastrous for your soul if Christianity is true - which I and the man in this debate would argue for. Your view also assumes that man, by his natural faculties, can come to an accurate relationship and knowledge of God when, if Christianity is true as I would argue, man's emotions, reasoning, and opinions are contaminated from the noetic effects of the fall of man and can't be relied on.

[TheMuziekmann]

@MusingsOfAMoron lol that made no sense. Man is but one entity, the body a empty shell, with no conscience or will. You are saying my body holds more than one entity? Makes no sense. God breathed life into us but by no means does that make man and God comparable! If your bible said God was a cat, would you believe it without even applying logic? What about the people of Moses who worshipped the cow? Where does idol worship end? Body is inanimate, spirit and soul are seprate? care to explain? :-/

[MusingsOfAMoron]

@TheMuziekmann wait you are one person yet speak of a SOUL which is in a state of rest, within you, now does that not sound wrong, for you speak of another entity within the body which you know will rot. yet you claim you are one. BRAVO so you do understand. Now as to comparing you to God, not in a million years, but I know for sure that man was made in His Image and likeness, the Holy Bible tells me so. That's my point!!! Though I possess Body, soul and spirit, yet I am ONE being.

[TheMuziekmann]

@MusingsOfAMoron you're comparing God to me?? realy?? I am ONE person, my spirit is eternal thanks to God, my body is not, it will rot away without my soul. My dreams? My soul does not leave my body... best way to describe it, its in a state of meditation or rest... but still in my body ofcourse....What is the link?

[MusingsOfAMoron]

@TheMuziekmann Ok since you insist on this direction and you ask questions answer me one. Do you ever speak to yourself, but how can you speak to yourself if you're only one being? who's is speaking to whom? Do you have a spirit which actually can separate itself from your body, yes when you dream your spirit travels, so is your spirit you, or another being??

[TheMuziekmann]

@MusingsOfAMoron can you worship God WITHOUT worshipping Jesus or the holy spirit? If the answer is no, then you are worshipping 3 figures. If you are asking Jesus to guide you, or the holy spirit for strength and not God, then you are worshipping not one God but 3. Wether you say 3, 9, or 20 different entities make up God, it is polytheism. God is independent of Jesus and the holy spirit, He does not need them to exist, if He did, He would not be God. Use logic, it's God's gift to man.

[MusingsOfAMoron]

@TheMuziekmann who said anything about 3 deities, you have not understood the bible, it speaks of only ONE Deity, I have never seen the bible promote the concept of 3 Deities. One Deity, 3 personalities, simplest way I can bring it across to you. Read the bible the son does nothing outside of the father, the spirit does nothing outside of the father and son. The three work in perfect UNION cause they are ONE. Read it and see for yourself.

[TheMuziekmann]

@MusingsOfAMoron explain it to me...how is worshipping 3 deities as one not idol worship?

[MusingsOfAMoron]

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned

[MusingsOfAMoron]

@TheMuziekmann have you been listening at all wow,

[m3sopotamian]

@KeithTruth traditional god which people have made a picture of for me, I really don’t know how to word it for you. Secondly man can come to know god if he is capable of understanding the divine being, to me I see god in books and in experiences that is god to me I don’t hold on traditions. To me you’re putting it as if I meant that if you are born and go about life not reading anything and just living you can come to know god and that is not what I meant. Peace