The Price of Altruism

Academic and author Oren Harman reveals the extraordinary discoveries of George Price -- the eccentric genius who strove to understand evolution's greatest riddle: altruism.

Category:

Education

Tags:

• Oren Harman
• George Price
• altruism
• altruistic
• Darwin
• evolution
• society
• behaviour
• social
• talk
• book
• debate
• The Price of Altruism

[WitlessSod]

The common fallacy is a mistake of scale: while our genes might be selfish, it doesn't mean that the individual necessarily is. In the case of altruism, it is perfectly conceivable that an altruist will have a higher standing and a better reputation than an unabashed egotist, and people will be far more willing to reciprocate. In other words, it is entirely possible to have a person who is genetically altruistic even though the gene itself has selfish motives for it.

[Drewface14]

couldn't it be argued that Price was not being selfless because in reality he really wanted to prove that there was selflessness so to prove it he gave everything away but doing so was also to prove his theory true so he got the satisfaction of that out of his actions

this however is somewhat a catch 22 because if he did get something out of it then his theory was not proven through his actions but if it was not proven then it could then be argued that he didn't get anything out of his actions

[WitlessSod]

@dopplerking91 1- It's not so much the anti-social ape-man developing caring so much as those who were caring to begin with being rewarded 2- Genetic selfishness is measured in terms of survival and, most importantly, reproductive success. Human selfishness is measured by motives. 3- I'm not sure that I understand your question regarding where I draw the line.

[KennyReddwooddforest]

@WitlessSod Yes. If they want to use this strict determination of altruism in terms of altruism based on biological necessity meaning selfishness. Like you, I also prefer not to call it selfishness. The mother has an inbuilt need to protect her child, biological altruism, some have more some have less of it, it has to do with the brain formation, but this need to protect the baby, called mother instinct, when it's huge, sees no boundaries between species. At least that's how I work.

[jnevins64]

One serious problem I have with this guy's claims is that it assumes free will, which has no scientific bases - the question of whether, or under what circumstances we exercise altruism might is most definitely a question of biology, psychology and physics. Currently the indication is that we are mainly deterministic with possibly some probabilistic elements - which completely overrules overcoming the three named elements.

[jnevins64]

@Drewface14 Think your right - but its not a catch 22 - the thing you have to remember is that actions is taken with intent only - so his intention was to prove it. From an objective point of view it might be altruism - but subjectively it was not.

It is not altruism if the intent is altruism.

[SnorlaxSquad]

Look at that asshole texting in the back row. He shouldn't be there if he doesn't even care enough to listen.

[JpassTheTime]

@Drewface14 what can clear things up is to distinguish the effects of one's actions as being intentional or accidental. If one's means are altruistic for the ends of being selfless-then one is truly selfless, despite self gain. but If one's means are altruistic for the ends of being selfish-then one is not selfless.

it all depends if the means are altruistic or self centered. if the person does not seek reciprocation, although he ACCIDENTALLY received, it does't make him selfish

[dopplerking91]

@WitlessSod so this compassion/altruism, whatnot...this developed as means for self-preservation? the anti-social ape-man developed caring and selflessness as a way to better survive within a social network?...you say human selfishness is different from genetic selfishness...ok how so? where do you draw the line differentiating our genes evolving and our psychology evolving stirctly from the evolutionary and survival of the fittest standpoint?

[malexandrec]

Academics muddy the waters with language and then propose to possibly, maybe, perhaps clear with adequate research funding the deliberately muddied waters -- with language.

Blah blah blah.

[WitlessSod]

@dopplerking91 Depends from what perspective. It is entirely possible for the individual to act in a manner that is genuinely altruistic. Genes have no more motives than does a bottle of bleach: motives imply intent. What is called genetic selfishness is what helps the propagation of a given gene. I guess what I'm saying is that human selfishness and genetic selfishness are not the same thing. What is selfish from a human standpoint could be altruistic from a genetic standpoint and vice-versa.

[dopplerking91]

@WitlessSod so your saying that altruism developed out of a selfish motive then? hm interesting...