Jeffrey K. Zeig, PhD Reflects on Legacy of Albert Ellis, PhD

After Jeffrey K. Zeig, Ph.D. presented a workshop at Nova Southeastern University in Fort Lauderdale, Florida on February 11, 2008, Jeffrey T. Guterman, Ph.D. spoke briefly with him about his reflections on the legacy of Albert Ellis, Ph.D., the father of cognitive-behavior therapy and founder of rational emotive behavior therapy (REBT). Zeig and Guterman discuss distinctions between Zeig's and Ellis's approaches to psychotherapy.

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Jeffrey K. Zeig, Ph.D. is the Founder and Director of the Milton H. Erickson Foundation, http://www.erickson-foundation.org, architect of The Evolution of Psychotherapy Conferences, http://www.evolutionofpsychotherapy.com, and President of Zeig, Tucker & Theisen behavioral sciences publishers, http://www.zeigtucker.com

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VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW:

Guterman: You know that Ellis died last year.

Zeig: I spoke at his tribute.

Guterman: You spoke at his tribute? So, and I know that was in New York. So, what I'm wondering is if you can just share your reflections on his legacy.

Zeig: Oh, an incredible legacy. Albert Ellis saw more patients than anybody in the history of psychotherapy. And he was a wonderfully experiential psychotherapist. He recognized that psychotherapy didn't happen just because of the words that you said. It was because of the experiences that you had. So, Ellis's contribution is of one of the great psychotherapists of history. That's secure, being the father of cognitive-behavioral approaches to psychotherapy. But more than that, he was a tremendous humanist. He spoke endlessly. He spoke whenever people requested him to speak. He was always active. He was a great contributor to the Erickson Foundation. And I think that I first met Al at the 1985 Evolution Conference. But I considered him to be a wonderful friend of the Erickson Foundation.

Guterman: And since you mentioned that, I loved so much, I had the audio tape of, I believe it's your 1985 workshop at the Ericksonian Conference on metaphor.

Zeig: Yeah.

Guterman: If you recall. Do you remember you and Ellis debated?

Zeig: We debated, but that was not in '85. So, I think what,

Guterman: I'm not sure what yours was.

Zeig: But on the Erickson Foundation Web site: http://www.erickson-foundation.org

Guterman: Okay. Which I'll link to with this video.

Zeig: Link to. Yeah. Well, I think there's the actual debate that Ellis and I had.

Guterman: On metaphor...

Zeig: Not on metaphor.

Guterman: ...in psychotherapy.

Zeig: It was, like, poetry versus science.

Guterman: That's it. And I just want to, as we close this, cause I know there's other people want to speak to you. You had drawn a distinction between your approach to psychotherapy and Ellis's approach, saying that yours is an inside-out approach and his is an outside-in.

Zeig: Yes.

Guterman: You know, because his being educative.

Zeig: Yeah.

Guterman: So, today, you draw distinctions, saying, talked about the importance of the experiential approach in psychotherapy, accessing emotion in the client, versus just providing information. So, despite the legacy of Ellis that you value so much, that you just spoke of, you, I was just wondering if you could speak for a moment about that distinction between your work and Ellis's model. Because being a sort of outside-in approach, because nevertheless he was very provocative.

Zeig: He was very provocative and, also, experiential, but more didactic in his approach than I. And much more research-based in his approach. So, I tend to be more on the model of using art. He was more on the model of using science.

Guterman: Right. So, I, I mean, we could really, if we really wanted to go and look at it, we could draw distinctions.

Zeig: To try to expound on that in a few moments is just impossible.

Guterman: And we could spend all day....

Zeig: Absolutely.

Guterman: on that.

Zeig: And fruitfully so.

Guterman: And it would be like a Kuhnian issue of proponents of their paradigms practicing their trades in different worlds.

Zeig: Yeah, but I hope you keep developing that love of Ellis. He was somebody I loved and respected immensely. So, his work shouldn't be lost. It's just too important to contemporary culture, not just to psychotherapy.

Guterman: That's very much appreciated, Jeff...

Zeig: Good luck with it.

Guterman: And thanks very much for the workshop today.

Zeig: Good luck.

Guterman: I learned a lot.

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More Information:

http://www.erickson-foundation.org

http://www.jeffzeig.com

Category:

Education

Tags:

• psychotherapy
• jguterman
• albert
• ellis
• milton
• erickson
• rebt
• cognitive
• zeig
• jeffrey
• jeffreyzeig

[c197373]

i thought he was the father of or REBT?

[jguterman]

Yes, both. Father of REBT and cognitive-behavior therapy.

[herdondoozer]

Thanks for the clarification. Please keep the great videos coming.

[jguterman]

Sure thing.

[herdondoozer]

Not sure if that last post got completed. I will simply ask. is there some hostility here, seems that you are grilling Dr. Zeig rather than interviewing him?

[jguterman]

No hostility at all. We didn't have much time for the interview, so I was trying to get a lot in. Perhaps I sounded rushed? Although I consider myself to have been a proponent of REBT (in the 1980s), I shifted to a strength-based, solution-focused approach by 1992.

[herdondoozer]

Dr. Guterman I have watched alot of your videos and found them extremely informative. I consider myself an Ericksonian Theorist and have studied his work on my own accord also taking master's level trainings in NLP and Hypnosis. While watching this particular video I got the sense that there is some hostility between Ellis and Ericksonian Theorists. You seem to be grilling Dr. Zeig during this interview is there any truth to this