Most Magisterial Tulips

I just Wanna Throw Up on Lirturgical Relevancy Fails. So WE answers questions about flowers and reasons, with magesterial efficiency and a heart for ministeriality. Or something like that. Oh, and WE take extra time cause it's a really serious question and the answers make almost no sense, except that they make perfect sense. You won't be able to resist it, unless, of course, you do.

Category:

Education

Tags:

• Worldview Everlasting
• Tulip
• Luther
• Calvin
• Wretched

[Revfiskj]

Thanks for all the comments! Time to close. Go read your confessions instead of this thread! :)

[justusetpeccator1]

Pastor, I'm happy to hear that!

Yes, we worship Jesus by eating and drinking His body and blood which is truly, and essentially present in, with, and under the bread and wine (which are also present). But, this should never be understood as worshiping bread and wine.

Lutherans do indeed worship Jesus; and because Jesus is true God, and also true man, it is true that we worship a human. But, this formula does not hold for the Sacrament. The personal union is not the same as the sacramental union.

[Revfiskj]

@justusetpeccator1 Natural, personal and sacramental: "These three kinds of unions must be spoken about and dealt with separately. Also, one must not be set against the other, or one rejected because of another." J Gerhard

I'm afraid it sounds to me as if you reject the Sacramental union, and that you use the phrase "in, with and under" in order to do so. The phrase is meant to protect the word "is," not to replace it.

I also fear we are about to begin going around in circles.

[justusetpeccator1]

@Revfiskj I hope not!!:)

Pastor, I agree absolutely with Gerhard. That is my point. The Personal Union and the Sacramental Union are not the same thing. The "in, with, and under" formula is the definition of the sacramental union. By my using it, I am saying no more or less than what the Confessors said.

Please, explain how I am rejecting the Sacramental Union by what I have written. Please do not just tell me "this is what you are saying sounds like".

[Revfiskj]

@justusetpeccator1 "Is," is the definition of the Sacramental Union. That is the Word from Scripture, not to mention the Confessions. To use "in, with and under" to accuse a Christian of heresy for faith in the Word "is," and for the belief that faith in the Words is the true worship of God, you are very much saying more *and* less than the Confessors said.

We are very much going in circles. For that reason, I am closing the thread to new comments. I am saddened by this fact.

[uhgustin]

Martin Luther: "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves..."

just sayin'....

[terriergal]

LOL this is brilliant. I am one of those stuck in between... I love you guys.

[shieldwolflutheran]

As a former Baptist Calvinist, this is the best explanation/comparison of the two approaches to the topic of salvation/predestination I have ever seen.  Thank you. The Lutheran understanding (Biblical understanding) was a great joy to me when "I discovered" (hah, me? no) it 17 years ago. Randy

[jcnaumann]

Absolute VINTAGE Revfiskj! This one is going to be used in catechesis...

[justusetpeccator1]

@Revfiskj Thank you for your time Pastor. I do not deny Christ's word *is*, and I too am saddened that I can't get this across to you. May God bless your work in the Holy Ministry.

Thanks.

[Revfiskj]

@justusetpeccator1 Ah...we do have differing definitions of consubstantiation. Wikipedia agrees with Dr. Scaer, as do I.

I'll stick with the Word "is," and with Luther: "Here two things have become one; I would call that a Sacramental Union, because Christ's body and the bread are there given us as a Sacrament." Quoted by Pieper VIII, p. 363.

You assert in vain that my position is contra the confessions. "But if the Words remain...the elements are truly the body and blood of Christ." LC V 14

[tutal]

Regarding the "worship" of bread and wine. The issue our confessions condemn, is really not the elements, but the Eucharistic adoration that occurs of the consecrated elements apart from their instituted use (ie a Corpus Christi procession). To try dividing out Christ's presence from the elements He is present in gets really close to the same error as Nestorius. When I distribute I say "This is the body of Christ", that which I hold/give ought be adored through eating as Christ instituted.

[justusetpeccator1]

@Revfiskj I confess only what is shown to be true by the Scriptures. I accept the BOC because it is a true exposition of the Scriptures.