Frances Fox Piven vs. Milton Friedman, Thomas Sowell

In this clip from the 1980 Free To Choose, socialist Frances Fox Piven tangles with Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell. We thought this would be interesting in light of the recent dustup between The New York Times and Fox News (Glenn Beck) on the subject of Piven.

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  Nonprofits & Activism

[Mark Sellers]

Francis represents the angry socialist. She was angry then is angry now and sadly will die angry and never making a difference in anything other than to show what an angry progressive (nice word for Marxism) woman looks like.

[Jack Foobar]

You can't have freedom without private property Rights. It's impossible.

[coffeedrinker2121]

yes the real world, we are dependent on " even the least among us", that indeed is the real world...

[jrvenice1999]

If you want to have a philosophical conversation about the interdependence of of all things (human, animal, elemental) that's fine for the classroom. But eventually you have to step out into the real world. Good luck to you.

[coffeedrinker2121]

the fact that less people do something doesn't make it more or even less important. and please don't start the ad hominem attacks, it's immature. we are having a normal conversation.... from an ethical view, the fact that someone does something very common doesn't mean it's not important and undeserving of a democratic vote. again, within a coroporate framework, doctors cannot work without people cleaning.

[jrvenice1999]

If you look at a surgeon and a janitor and you only see workers. And you say "well we need surgeons and we need janitors, so they are both the same. Then you're living in a fantasy world. How's the USSR doing? Communism doesn't work. It fails because it doesn't consider human nature, human desire and drive. This isn't Utopia. Why are some jobs more important than others? Because they are few people who have the skills to do the truly important jobs like a surgeon. Millions can be a janitor.

[coffeedrinker2121]

its the reason people form corporations

[coffeedrinker2121]

has no normative difference in importance. ie, the doctor cannot obtain as much value without the janitor, and same for the janitor. it's the division of labor problem for capitalists that knock much of their ethical arguments about supply and demand out of the water. ie collective worth creating more demand than individual worth.... a basic fact of life

[coffeedrinker2121]

yes, scarcity creates value of individual transaction. ie, barter or w/e. collective production is way different and co-dependent. 1 person digging cannot create as much value as 5 people digging and 3 others taking phone calls. ( creating more exponential value than than one person alone)... im not sure I understand the relevance or working longer for expertise as that would be the same as the janitor working.... a doctor working the same hrs for 20 yrs and a janitor working for 20 years

[jrvenice1999]

Are you asking why a surgeon who works 50 hours per week earns $250,000 per year but a janitor who works 50 hours per week only earns $20,000? Scarcity leads to value. Gold is more valuable than lead because of scarcity. It takes 12 years to learn to be a surgeon. It takes 1 day to learn to be a janitor.