Re: miselaineeous nondeterminism

This is a response to Randy's response to my response to Randy's response to Gary's response to the original post, "Nondeterminism in the Hodgkins-Huxley Equation".

Category:

Science & Technology

Tags:

• free
• will
• determinism
• nondeterminism
• chaos
• theory
• choice
• determinist

[stevesincali]

A few thoughts:

- Can you talk about what you believe the role or foundation of ethics should be in a deterministic universe?

- Since you're interested in fractals, chaos theory and determinism, could you post your thoughts on what you think the real-world and mathematical significance of Rule 110 cellular automaton might turn out to be?

- Do you believe it could be possible for a deterministic system to ever break down or fail into some form of non-determinism?

Thanks!

[miselaineeous]

- Do you believe it could be possible for a deterministic system to ever break down or fail into some form of non-determinism?

um.. no. I can't imagine what non-determinism really is, honestly.. unless we're talkin about quantum probability stuff. Randy gives examples of equations with more than one answer, but I think in physical reality, the interaction of systems with other systems causes there to be only one possible outcome at any given moment.

[stevesincali]

You know that moment in 'Contact' where Palmer Joss asks Ellie Arroway why she, particularly, needs to be the one to go in the machine? I'm going to give you something similar now: why does the question of free will remain so interesting to you, if --like some other notable concepts such as subjectivity or consciousness-- such a thing can never be proven to exist?

[miselaineeous]

It intrigues me that people believe in free-will, the same way it intrigues me that people believe in god or magic. We're wired to feel we have a "ghost in the machine", for which there may be a purpose, just as there is a purpose for being wired to accept personal accountability as a real thing. We wouldn't work as social creatures if we didn't. But it's REFRESHING to accept determinism and be comfortable with it, and still have pride, honor & self worth.

It's not for the weak minded..

[miselaineeous]

I would say, "I made a decision today." We make choices and we have WILL.. it's just not free. It's not a result of some weird magical power.

I don't feel controlled BECAUSE I'm wired to not feel controlled, just like everyone else is.

And I DO NOT believe anything is PRE-determined. It's determined as it goes along.. at least if we think of time in a unidirectional manner. I'd have to get into chaos theory to explain why I think it's impossible to compute the future.

Ok, Video coming soon!

[stevesincali]

One more such example would be Garrett Lisi's ideas about the E8 pattern. Perhaps you could talk about that a bit if you make a video on chaos/fractals/complex organics arising from recursive sets.

You ever see the film, 'Old Joy'? Recommended for a few reasons, but in this case for a moment where a character explains (without saying precisely so) that he sees the universe as essentially fractal in nature.

[stevesincali]

Would you say then that a more accurate statement would be:

A) "I made a decision today"

B) "A decision happened to me today"

How do you personally avoid feeling "trapped" or "controlled" as many people would at the idea their fate and all of their "decisions" are in effect pre-determined?

Sorry if this is all Determinism 101, but I'm just trying to understand a bit more clearly how you view these things!

[miselaineeous]

- Since you're interested in fractals, chaos theory and determinism, could you post your thoughts on what you think the real-world and mathematical significance of Rule 110 cellular automaton might turn out to be?

Rule 110 is just another cool example of a chaotic system that stems from extremely simple rules and can become something that appears to be very organic in nature.

I believe the entire universe works this way, including embedded systems on every level except the quantum level.

[miselaineeous]

stevesincali.. i might make a video response to your questions soon, but for now...

- Can you talk about what you believe the role or foundation of ethics should be in a deterministic universe?

I can tell you what the role and foundation of ethics ARE in our deterministic universe. I don't think they SHOULD be any different. :)

For reasons which I think are obvious, we are wired with the idea of personal accountability. If this weren't the case, we wouldn't have evolved.

[prowler3000]

Whereas if myself and all of the others are merely figments of your imagination (ie Solipsism is True) then you can do whatever you want to/with "us" and there will be no ultimate ramifications (consequences) as a result. I mean, how can anyone retaliate against your actions if no one else genuinely exists?