John Piper - TULIP - Perseverance of the Saints 1of3

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Seminars/1727_TULIP/
John Piper - TULIP - Perseverance of the Saints 1of3

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[Link0126]

@jmmanley How does someone know how to follow God? Thousands of protestant denominations have different and conflicting ideas. Some are fine with gay marriage, others not. Some say baptism is necessary, others do not. Some make exceptions for abortions, others have different exceptions or none at all. So how can you know? Jesus never told anyone to write anything down, instead he started a Church that he promised to guide into all truth. Hence, we look to the Church: "the pillar and ground..."

[jmmanley]

@Link0126 The problem is not really any of these things. The problem is one of faith: where do we ultimately place our faith? Protestants say they can do so directly in God and his word, Catholics can only do so through the Church. So yes the RCC can rule on moral issues and settle disagreements, but only on the basis of their own authority (just like Protestants). This creates a culture where we are encouraged to believe and trust the Church for answers rather than God himself

[jmmanley]

@Link0126 ...much in the same way that a unified institutional church can fire or excommunicate members and priests if they don't approve of what he believes, even if he's right!

[Link0126]

@jmmanley There are as many Protestant interpretations of Christianity as there are Protestant churches. The closet thing to a unified denomination is the Anglicans. Visit your local Baptist church. Then visit another one. I guarantee that they will differ GREATLY in their teachings/beliefs. Also, most Protestant churches get to pick and choose who their "pastor"/"preacher"/"minister" is. And, if he says something that the congregation doesn't like, they can just fire him, even if he's right!

[jmmanley]

Also, I want to make it clear that Catholics are typically mistaken about the nature of the disagreements between protestants. There are not "thousands" of denominations, there are not "thousands" of different beliefs. In my experience in talking with protestants and in going to various churches, the people/churches that have the widest disagreement are those that make the least effort to take the Bible seriously.

[jmmanley]

@Link0126 So if you wanted to know what the CC or the Bible says, you would not ask any random Catholic or Protestant, you'd try to find a "Serious" Catholic or Protestant. Are there objective ways of telling who is "serious"? Not really. The difference is that an "unserious" protestant can become the leader of his own denomination if he wants to and create a group of people who believe likewise, but an "unserious" Catholic cannot.

[jmmanley]

@Link0126 Let me put it this way: Just because a persons calls himself a Catholic doesn't mean he believes what the CC teaches, therefore his beliefs aren't necessarily a good representation of the CC. Similarly, just because a Protestant says he believes in "only the Bible" doesn't mean he really believes what the Bible teaches, and therefore his beliefs aren't necessarily a good representation of the Bible.

[Link0126]

@jmmanley The main problem with Bible alone is that there is no accountability and each person is bound only by their own conscience. Catholics can choose to follow the Church's teaching or not but they can't write it off quite so easily. The Church can rule on modern day issues like stem cell research and make absolutely clear the immorality of contraception while the Bible alone cannot. Heresies can officially be determined, disagreements actually get settled. The Bible alone cannot do that.

[Link0126]

@jmmanley "serious protestants" what does that mean though? We can objectively determine what the CC teaches but how do you conclude objectively what makes a "serious protestant"? As far as I can tell protestants agree on the trinity and faith alone. Baptism is out, communion is out, divorce, abortion, women preachers, homosexuality, TULIP, etc... And I'm not even talking about individual protestants, I'm talking about the official teaching of the protestant churches.

[jmmanley]

@Link0126 I think the difference is largely in the perception. There seems to be just as much variety in the Catholic church, but because it exists as one denomination with an official set of beliefs, it appears far more unified than protestantism, which has all the same variety but lacks the institutional unity and doctrine. Ultimately, trusting any particular church denomination (Catholic, Anglican, etc) has all the same problems as trying to trust "the Bible alone."