On Free Will, the Reductionist Model and Quantum Physics (Pyrrho314)

Some thoughts

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• pyrrho314
• Philosophy
• Reductionism
• Will
• Determinism

[emblemOFbeing]

Clumps of dust, amoebas, and human beings are all 3 made up of microscopic particles whose behavior is deterministic -- yet, clearly, in the ladder two cases we 'see' the instantiation of new causal, informational, functional, expressive properties (powers, capacities, whatever) etc. etc.

On one scale (parts), all three are deterministic,

yet novel causal features appear, in each case, when taken as wholes embedded in larger systems.

Isnt this a question of reductionism, not determinism?

[Censeo]

cont. The prison example was to show that if something is entrapped in something, it is free from something else. Will being trapped in determinism makes it free from indeterminism. Something being "free" is always a reference to being free from something, and everything is always trapped in something and therefore free from something else.

[Censeo]

cont... So, is there a worthwhile context to use to determine how free somebody's will is? I think so. Some people clearly are afraid to live, or notice too many obligations to allow themselves to do what they know will make them happy and do not have the capacity to see an opportunity to make both things go together. Some people don't think enough to see the opportunities they would choose if they saw them. And of course, some people are the opposite of that, and have free will.

[Censeo]

We have to ask what something is to be considered free from before we can tell ourselves if it is free or not. I don't think it is any value in arguing that will isn't free until it is free from determinism, as that would be the same as saying will has to be free from motives and intelligence and persona, in order to be free.

To me, the mind can have differences in self-reflection. Freedom is something we get a feel for. Prison is freedom from vast space, but it is not freedom in normal context

[dewinthemorning]

Free will? Our decisions, choces and preferences are determined by our memories of experiences and our surrounding. They are caused by our embodied mind. The mind is the neurological activity in our brain, which is part of the body.

Reductionism is a valuable method in science.

[unseenstrings]

And such a mechanism could not be free from the way evolution had programmed it to function, nor could the mechanism be free from environmental factors that modified the program in order for the individual to be able to adapt to new and varying environments.

In fact, I question what the so called will is. What does it mean? Wouldn't the capability of conscious choice and decision and intention be another way of saying "mind?" Is the mind free from the brain? Isn't the mind what the brain does?

[unseenstrings]

Do people mean subatomic particles acting in really weird ways when they say "free will?" No. Do people mean "random" events happening at the subatomic level in the brain when they say "free?" No. People mean an uncaused (or even genetic (evolved)) mechanism that can overcome all genetic+environment influences. But they don't seem to realize that such complexity could not arise as a result of genes alone. The function of such a mechanism would be determined by a genetic-environmental interaction

[unseenstrings]

Discussing disputed philosophical issues while trying to understand the structure, state, & function of a complex physical system adds unnecessary complexity and confusion to the investigation. I suspect pyrrho is befuddling himself by debating determinism while trying to understand the inner working of a physical system, such as the human brain.

I suspect people are assuming the issue is more complex than it really is, sort of as I did when I first took algebra. Once I got it, it was simple.

[unseenstrings]

When one takes away part of the brain, is the whole still greater than the sum of its parts? Emergent properties can be taken to mean an emergent intangible thing, like the "soul." See what I'm saying? I say that insinuating the whole is greater than the sum of its parts is eloquent rhetoric, such as poetry. But the fact is, the whole is what it is because of the state & structure of the parts. Change the state or structure & the sum remains the same, but not function. I admire your skepticism.