Celibidache - Beethoven Reherhsal Moment

A cultral breath is layed onto the orchestra and changes the feeling of the whole rehershal.

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[sgabriel]

@Strefanasha True, it was new, but the metronome WAS a precision instrument, if prone to unreliability if poorly maintained. Beethoven and Maelzel had a close relationship and Beethoven famously maintained his metronome in perfect working order.. we can see this in his letters. I know the stories about the Scherzando of the 8th... There's no reason to believe that the joke is about inaccuracy. I think it's just a light-hearted parody of a metronome or of metronomic playing.

[sgabriel]

@Strefanasha I agree: "molto vivace" does not STRICTLY prescribe a tempo; it is a tempo marking, nevertheless. Beethoven cared deeply about tempo and was very careful in marking them. I can't see L.v. marking "molto vivace" rather than any of the other possibilities (allegro ma non troppo, animato...) unless he wanted it very fast, can you?

I love the transparency 'Celi' often brought; I don't like  fundamental aspects of composers' work being changed... e.g. tempos.

[Strefanasha]

taking it slow is not the easy option: keeping bow control and playing off the string, as the articulation requires, at this tempo is extremely hard. i am persuaded by the result and by his verbal explanations which i read (I have no german to speak of) that this is A valid reading of the scherzo of beethoven's 9th, which symphony i have performed several times over the years

[Strefanasha]

@sgabriel but the metronome was only newly invented at the time. it was not a precision instrument' and to my knowledge taking beethoven at the marked readings is to take them too fast, because of this error in the metronome which was invented by Malzel and gently lampooned in the "slow" movement of the 8th symphony

[Strefanasha]

@sgabriel "molto vivace" does not strictly indicate a tempo, but a manner, does it not? "Very lively". at a slower tempo than usual? why not? if he can get away with it, by all means

[Strefanasha]

@eumuitomenos I was a professional double bass player for some 20 years. Maybe Celi was different, but in my experience conductors only took it slower than they intended for amateurs who had not learned to play their parts. and they made it angrily clear that was why they did it.If this is valid then this here was indeed Celi's intended tempo, and, getting to know his work, I would believe it.

not that I am complaining, this tempo is intriguing and I might get used to it

[sgabriel]

@eumuitomenos ... But I think that Celibidache's chosen tempo in the Munich recording is even slower!

[sgabriel]

@eumuitomenos You make an excellent point, sir.

[eumuitomenos]

@sgabriel all you ppl are so outraged by this tempo: have you ever considered that it might be just a "rehearsal tempo", and not really the performance tempo?Just so that all the musicians can really hear everything that is going on and every orchestral part and, in the meantime and one of the Celibidache's signature rehearsal objectives, have a deeper understanding and interpretation of the music they are playing..People familiar with the orchestral music world sure know what I'm talking about!

[relav295]

@Bautisnemo Everyone's a music critic these days, especially on youtube ;) So just ignore such unprofessionalism ;)