Greg Bahnsen vs Stein - The Great Debate (part 13 of 14)

Greg Bahnsen vs Gordon Stein - The Great Debate: Does God Exist? (part 13 of 14)

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[Follower172]

@JanJiska You don't want to know God. You are responsible. I said no one could know him, I didn't say no one could know he existed. Your last question assumes that I have a worldview that doesn't allow me to know anything, that I could trust what I see, and that I could recognize truth when I see it. You know, you have the same problem. How do you know anything?

[JanJiska]

@Follower172,

"would or could know God is if God reveals himself."

So it is not my fault I do not know God then. If I die an atheist it is not my fault either - cool.

"So you are wrong on both accounts"

Actually, I doubt it.1

"Like I said, God revealed himself"

So how do you know God is as he claims and is not some other supernatural force lying to you? Or your own imagination?

[Follower172]

@JanJiska The only reason someone would or could know God is if God reveals himself. What you said shows nothing but bias. I am very educated, and I don't believe what my parents or anyone around me when I was little believed. So you are wrong on both accounts. Like I said, God revealed himself, but personally God changes the heart, the only way a person would know and love God is if God sets his love and grace on them. People don't "learn" their way to him (1 corinthians)

[JanJiska]

@Follower172,

"My worldview allows me to know things for sure"

How do you know that?

"presuppose God (you don't) so because I do, I have a rational basis for knowing things"

Why? The only reason that someone would require a 'god' to 'know things' is because they are ill educated or have been heavily biased when they were young and impressionable.

[Follower172]

@JanJiska My worldview allows me to know things for sure. I presuppose God (you don't) so because I do, I have a rational basis for knowing things, because God has revealed himself. He revealed himself as creator off all things. And further, the people in the flood were not "beyond redemption." Where does the Bible say that? It says God carried out judgement. And he is only a bully if you try to fit him into your moral frame work which is lacking. He judged sinners who deserved judgement

[JanJiska]

@Follower172,

"My worldview allows me to know things"

How do you know that?

"God created"

How do you know that?

"But, with the flood, you are assuming that all the ones who died went to hell"

Yes, they were beyond redemption, that was the point. Although I don't actually care being as it never happened and if it did your God is a sickening bully whom I would never worship if he appeared in front of me.

[Follower172]

@JanJiska My worldview allows me to know things. God created, and he did things in such a way as we can actually know things, and make inferences and use logic and reasoning and apply rational thought. HE didn't kill anyone because they were "beyond redemption." HE judged them because he chose NOT to save them. But, with the flood, you are assuming that all the ones who died went to hell. And some could be in heaven (babies included). and babies are not innocent either.

[JanJiska]

@Follower172 (part 2),

" And if the Bible is true, as this topic is presupposing"

Not really. Please explain to me how you know Jesus was not lying about the source of his supernatural powers.

"God saves people (sinners) that is why they could go to heaven"

God killed everyone (apart from a family) because they were beyond redemption - included innocent babies, animals etc. If they cannot be redeemed how can they go into heaven, you also previously stated that babies are not innocent

[JanJiska]

@Follower172, (part 1)

" You are borrowing from the Christian worldview when you talke about any morality, or any rationality. Listen to the debate man"

I have and your wrong. Morality does not require supernatural powers, especially one that require murdering homosexuals etc. Rationality and science are impossible if you presume a super natural creator.

I have been a first aider for years, I have never once had an injured theist turn me away and ask for a faith healer instead.

[Follower172]

@JanJiska God saves people (sinners) that is why they could go to heaven. And if the Bible is true, as this topic is presupposing, then they wouldn't care how or that they died, because they would be in heaven, and heaven is, if it is real, far better than the best days here. You are borrowing from the Christian worldview when you talke about any morality, or any rationality. Listen to the debate man