Goodness Without God is Good Enough: William Lane Craig vs Paul Kurtz 1/7

@snowjunkie111
Not pointless... if goodness without god means you are condemned for eternity! Of course, I say that tongue in cheek, but that's essentially what religion tells us.

@ fatgermanbastard

theres lots of ppl who arent religious, but still have a high sense of morality.. that proves it doesnt it?!

@FAKEPAIN:

This seems like an equivocation fallacy to me. The fact that people act cooperatively towards each other at best means that descriptive morality can exist without God. It has nothing to do with intrinsic morality which is what Craig is talking about.

Of course I am not defending his argument. Craig has never shown why morality from God would be intrinsic and why it is the only possible source for intrinsic morality or that intrinsic morality is at all a plausible idea.

ok fair enough i understand what u mean and i agree! thanks for enlighting me with your response mate!

cheers

nothing, i.e science, cant study if something has value. Value could only come from something else that has value, namely God.
Intrinsic morality is possible because no other species can reason and make moral decisions except us homo sapiens. this is in line with the idea that humans are made in God's image. Which links back to why or how we are valuable.

You are saying value can only come from something else that has value.

So which value does God's value come from ?

People sometimes ask if God is good then is a conforming to a moral standard. Now you ask if God has value where did he get his value from.
Another way to think of this is God simply is good. He is value. The moral code is his nature.


I think that if God didn't exist, humans could not have intrinsic value. You cant say human beings are valuable just because they're human beings since in a godless world, the difference between us and a dog would just be the structure of our dna.

@dmn22
Why does every thing need to be defined in relation to a divine decree? The difference between us and a dog is the fact that we humans have genuine feelings, emotions, higher intelligence and awareness, responsibilities, and moral sense. There's more than one way to determine value than our DNA structure. Besides, the Bible tells us that we are pieces of dirt in Genesis, worms in Psalms, lumps of clay in Romans. How is that giving us value?

No they act on what they think is right in their own mind, its relative to the individual.

Not everyone gives a shit about bettering mankind.

The reductionism that Craig is pushing on atheists is disgusting