Larry Holmes Tim Witherspoon 2 of 6

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• Boxing
• Larry Holmes
• Tim Witherspoon

[TA152H01]

I think Ali was a better fighter than Holmes, but I think Holmes beats him by decision.

Ali had better legs and a much better chin than Holmes. Holmes had a better jab, better defense, and more power. Neither had a left hook worth talking about.

Ali never liked guys with jabs, and would probably lose by decision. Still, against guys like Foreman, Liston or Frazier, I'd give Ali a better chance.

[TheBestBoxingGame]

@TA152H01 Cant see why Ali had a "much" better chin..

[TA152H01]

@TheBestBoxingGame Ali never got knocked out, and never got knocked down after the first Frazier fight (and then more from exhaustion), despite fighting Foreman, Frazier, Lyle, Norton, and Shavers. He got hit often too.

Holmes was badly knocked down and floundered around the ring against an older Shavers and the "great" Reinaldo Snipes, and got knocked out by Tyson.

I'm not saying Holmes had a glass jaw at all, but Ali is up there with Chuvalo and Marciano in terms of great chins.

[TheBestBoxingGame]

@TA152H01 Yes but I'm pretty sure that a 38 years old Ali would have gotten knocked out by Tyson as well...after all, he DID get knocked out by Larry Holmes, though he was never down. Apart from that left hook from Joe Frazier I hardly saw Ali got hit flush by anything, which doesnt prove a great chin, just great defense.

And btw, Ali was down two times before the Frazier fight..and was almost knocked out by Henry Cooper hadnt it been for some sharp thinking from Angelo Dundee.

[TheBestBoxingGame]

@TA152H01 I think that anyone would have been knocked down or out by the punches that wobbled /koed Holmes..even Ali..I'ts not something I can possibly know of course. Ali might have the edge in being able to take punishment during the stretch of a long career. Anyway, both had great chins.

[dropway9]

Who did Ali beat during his so called "prime" before forced into exile? You can't say he beat Liston in either fight, especially the 2nd. Cleveland Williams was washed up when he met Ali and Zora Folley had literally been shot several times and had bullets in his body when he fought Ali. Ali also fought Karl Mildenberger, Doug Jones and Henry Cooper - all tough fights. The Cooper fight, like lots of Ali fights, is mired in controversy as is the Jones decision. Holmes over Ali all day long.

[TheBestBoxingGame]

@dropway9 Think it was Cleveland Williams with the bullets.. Am curious to know why you dont think he beat Liston both times. Still, you cant take the Foreman win away from him, Foreman was thought to be indestructable, and was in his prime.

[Superwhodatt]

@TA152H01

Norton started concentrating on the jab half way through the fight.

Norton won most of the second half. He caught Holmes with nearly every jab he

threw from then on. Norton was unfit, he said his training was 5/10. Norton was old.

Ali could easily get away from Ernie Terrell's jab, which was at least the equal of Williams Also mainly from young 6' 5" Bugner, who's jab was faster than Williams and Holmes. Williams beaten a million times. Prime Ali could name the round.

[Superwhodatt]

@TA152H01

Holmes obviously was not peak. He was still much healthier than Ali against him.

Williams did beat him. Ali would likely KO the glass chinned Williams. Williams was Ko'd by anyone with a left hook. Holmes did not have a left hook most nights. Ali did have a left hook. KO'd Bonavena with a huge left hook. Bonavena steel chin. Ali left hooked Frazier fight 2 +3, and many others. He did not have a Frazier left hook, but Ray Leonard's left hook would probably have put Williams to sleep

[Superwhodatt]

@TA152H01

Ali said Shavers was the hardest, or depending on which quote, landed the best punches since Frazier.Ali was being caught repeatedly by Shavers, not rolling with them, Le Doux, who sparred with him, told the truth about past it Ali. Frazier did catch him with a sledge hammer hook, and did land good shots, no doubt.

[TA152H01]

@Superwhodatt Williams would have beaten Ali, easily. Much worse. No one could deal with that jab.

Norton gave Ali trouble with his jab, and gave Holmes no trouble with the jab. I think you need to actually watch these fights. Holmes was killing him until he got tired. Norton's jab was ineffective.

Knocking out a 6'7" undefeated guy with a big left hook, isn't an indictment that you can handle a jab.

You have it all reversed. Ali couldn't handle being jabbed.

[TA152H01]

@Superwhodatt Healthy? He was overweight. He also was much more competitive against Tyson than Ali was against him. He was in the fight, and effective at times.

You're talking about a guy that didn't fight for two years, and was coming off three losses (Williams beat him, easily). He was not the same fighter, or even close, as his prime, especially after a two year layoff.

[TA152H01]

@Superwhodatt You don't really believe that, do you? You'd be the only one. Look at Ali's face after the first Frazier fight. Ali was hurt far worse in that fight (Round 11), and was knocked down. His face was badly puffed up.

Frazier not only was a more accurate puncher, he threw a lot more. Shavers didn't even have the stamina to throw that kind of punch.

Not that Shavers didn't land, but I think you need to watch Ali Frazier I again.

[Superwhodatt]

@TA152H01

Re I think Holmes beats Ali by decision.

Don't think so, not any Ali before " 75.

Holmes had serious problems with a good jab.

Cooney stayed in the fight with LH because of his jab.

Weaver, Norton, Williams all caused serious difficulties due to jab

Ali jab finds Holmes all night. Holmes jab finds stationary fighters, LH need to set it up from well planted feet. Ali not stationary, could jab going backwards.

Gene Kilroy witnessed Ali school LH around late 74. Jabbed him to bits.

[Superwhodatt]

@TA152H01

Shavers hit him flush more than Frazier. Ask Larry Holmes, who said no fighter should have taken what Ali took from Shavers that night. Scott Le Doux, who sparred with Ali,

said he, LeDoux, landed his best shots flush on Ali all day, Ali just soaked them up. Le Doux said Ali feigned riding the punches, but had by then lost that ability and was taking them square on. A tragedy, using a steel chin as an anvil. A flat footed, feather fisted punching bag by the time he met Shavers.

[Superwhodatt]

@TA152H01

A few differences between Ali Holmes, Tyson Holmes.

Holmes had had a rigorous training schedule, Don King said and put on an impressive 15 rd sparring exhibition, LH said he did not realize upcoming fight was only 12 rds. All this in an interview with King and LH, 3 months prior to the Tyson fight.

LH was not on thyrolar, was a healthy just turned 38 yr old.

Ali was a Thyrolar poisoned, amphetamine drained, Parkinsons suffering near 39 yr old cripple.

Just saying ...

[TA152H01]

@Superwhodatt Are you forgetting Holmes had retired for two years, and was almost 40 when he fought Tyson? He was also overweight. That's like saying Holmes deserves credit for beating Ali. They were the same age.