more on guilt and regret

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[pronchie1]

I see guilt as self reproach and not as a fear of punishment which is a little bit more than just feeling regret. I can see guilt as a motivator to change future action and perspective I dont see that with regret. I agree that religion has usurped the word guilt completely. old English gylt probably derived from Germanic schuld or to owe. You did a wrong you owe back a good or you need to make it right.

[pyrrho314]

@pronchie1 : yes, but self reproach is the self-flagelation I mention. I think if we accept that regret is already a motivator, then the question is how efficient of a motivator is guilt? And motivate to what? I think the best guilt does is stop behavior, it does not promote rectification, and ultimately, since negative urges supressed in the mind build up, guilt is thus ensured to fail overall, however many small infractions it does avoid, the net total will be in the red by and large... imo

[23discordians]

Great video. I do think that the christian attitude towards guilt is one of the few things that christainity gets right. I'm not sure that your self flagellation characterisation is fair. You seem to be setting up a self punishment instead of action scenario. But It appears to me that the christians self punishment is really a symptom of an acceptance of the communal guilt which is a precursor to selfless action. The birching of backs is really only a ritualised expression of this realisation.

[pyrrho314]

@23discordians : mostly I'm making a distinction between self-flagelation and proaction and rectification. Really you could call the self-flagelating version "regret" and "guilt" the main motivator of a wrong, but I think natural language lends the terms tot he assignments I've made, that regret is more general, and there are lots of ways of thinking that may process perceptions of regret.

[GoldenFinchFellow]

Good one, been not able to watch many of your vids from time and I got back on a good topic. someone was self-flagellating about bad dave day yesterday, in which we are all dave on that day so no one wants to be dave no one will do anything bad on that day cause no matter who you blame its dave. This vid I think is the natural opposite of that strategy? what you wrote about suppressed negativity seems to correlate with bad dave 

[pronchie1]

@pyrrho314 I dont think that regret for most people is enough of a motivator to change future action guilt on the other hand is strong enough to do that with some people, as in preventing you from doing a wrong because you dont want to feel guilty. Eliminating negative urges through other mechanisms (openly speaking out, admitting) compliment guilt but are different mechanisms. What you do to compensate for the wrong caused is independent of guilt.

[pyrrho314]

@rhyfelur : no I did get the point, I just offer counterpoint in conversation? Yes I see we are on the same page, and I was just shining some light on the details, with the theme that I think guilt is a sort of malfunctional way of processing regret and mistakes.

[rhyfelur]

@pyrrho314 Yes, that's the dilemma I mentioned. Guilt feelings could be considered unnecessary for the well intentioned, yet they are probably the ones who are most inflicted with them. I guess you didn't get my point..which was simply that while regret is inevitable, if one continually tries to make the best decisions he possibly can, he needn't feel guilt, for he could do no other.

[pyrrho314]

@rhyfelur : well, what good does the so called "guilt" of people that are not well meaning do? Seems to me it lets them off the hook so they are even less well meaning than they would like to view themselves.

[rhyfelur]

If guilt is blaming yourself for past events and regret is wishing you had done things differently, then regret is something one could come to terms with and guilt might be completely unnecessary. Assuming you are well intentioned, you would always make the best decision you are capable of making at a given time, with the tools that are available to you . Isn't regret simply guilt minus the malintent? The question is, where does that leave ppl who are not "well meaning"?