@KingdomHeartz93 Patching. Patching can remove things like DACUS and fix any glitches or exploits found and practiced in competitive play. When was the last time you saw someone doing something like DACUS in Street Fighter IV? It just doesn't exist. No glitches or bugs to abuse there, and if there is, they can patch and remove it. Nintendo doesn't support patching, so that's why Brawl failed as hard as it did. Wii U is said to focus heavily on good online, though.
I'm 100% with you on creating a balanced game however I want to state two things:
1. impossible to do, game mechanics are ALWAYS found (such as DACUS) that can change things and being able to predict it ALL isn't possible-Nintendo couldn't do it, and Brawl was one of the biggest projects ever for the company.
2. Meta Knights don't win every match -_____-
go to Smashboards and learn something, as of 2009/10 studies they win about 35-40% of tourneys which is big, but he is beatable.
@VinceOfAllTrades As a game designer, I will play every character extensively and make sure they're all perfectly balanced with each other. I may have to sacrifice some uniqueness for that, but that is a very well justified sacrificed. I would rather have a Link and Toon Link be perfectly even with each other than have a Meta Knight win every match regardless of skill.
@VinceOfAllTrades I listen to my self. I've gamed for long enough to be able to analyze things for my self and decide for my self what is a truly good game. If I don't agree with what my players want, too bad for them. It's my game, my rules. And I believe anytime you lose, it should be your fault and yours alone. That's what I'm going to push for, whether they like it or not.
@genesisSOC and that's understandable, but there's always going to be people complaining something's too good and others saying it's too bad. So who do you listen to? And I guess that's where the incrementation comes in.
@VinceOfAllTrades I don't think so. I don't think there should ever be a moment when you lose because of a bad match up, or because of a glitch, or because of just bad game design/something a designer missed. With frequent patches, it lessens the chance of any given player suffering because of something like that. I don't want my player base to ever feel like they lost because of something outside their control, or because of something I designed with faults.
@genesisSOC because they're broken and dominant. I'm not saying no patches ever, I just think your increments way too small. A patch a month might be nice (after a final release).
@VinceOfAllTrades If people want familiarity, why did every one hate Yun for so long? Why do people hate Meta Knight so much? Why do people hate Sentinel? It's time for a new generation, it's time for progress, and it's time to put these "90s limitations" behind us. We live in 2012 now, it's time we competitively game like we do.
@genesisSOC um...in Brawl I main Toon Link. In Melee I main Gannondorf. In AE2012 I main Dictator. In UMvC3 I main She-Hulk. None of them are close to top tier. I'm just saying in slower games that are technical like KoF and SF I'd say people want familiarity.
@VinceOfAllTrades Eventually, those who are "best" and those who have "advantages" would start to even out over time and cease to have such huge leads over any given character. While you might have a very very slight advantage, it wouldn't be enough to cause any real frustration or have a consistent lead over anyone else. I'll make sure of that, so that people like you are forced to win on skill, not advantages.
@genesisSOC Well I wouldn't have mains. I'd use who was currently "best", obviously your goal is to create perfect balance but obviously that's not possible. So I'd probably switch characters a lot since no one's at an advantage and then just give up because every time I get used to something it changes.
@VinceOfAllTrades No, what it'd do is relieve the necessity of tier lists and living with your mains' "bad matchups" make it where you can constantly feel fresh, along with all your opponents, with all your favorite characters and have a fair and equal chance of winning each time. Bi weekly patches would keep the game running smoothly and remove a lot of the frustrations that you feel every time you play the game. I think you're just afraid of your mains getting nerfed.
@genesisSOC yeah, I guess I'm just thinking let's say if Capcom just started pumping out biweekly patches for SF, I'd be pissed because I know how my mains work in that game. Start changing things and now I'm not as familiar with my character, certain pokes may be dominant one week but not the next. That'd frustrate me a lot. But if you're just starting with a totally dynamic game there's nothing to get used to besides fundamental mechanics right?
@VinceOfAllTrades No, from a competitive perspective it needs constant changes and rebalances to REMAIN competitive. Also, I don't want to focus on long drawn out combos combat. I prefer Street Fighter over MvsC, and Smash Bros Brawl over Melee. That's because in combo based games, you spend less time actually fighting and more time comboing or getting comboed. It's not near as fun as actually fighting and playing "footsy" with your opponent.
@genesisSOC I'm just saying, from a competitive perspective if you frequently change things it's hard to stay dedicated, even if it's only a frame here or there because it'll most likely change at least 1 combo. I'm also assuming you're making a fighting game.
@VinceOfAllTrades Is that why League of Legends is officially the biggest MMO (has more active players than WoW, and none of them are bots) and Star Craft 2 is the biggest E-Sport? Yeah, that's what I thought. People aren't complaining about MvsC3. Patches = a great thing.
A Samus too hot for words.
OutcastShadow7 4 hours ago
@genesisSOC Melee and SF 33 didnt have patching and they are still 10000000000000000x times better than his sequel. Your argument is invalid..
felipe95951 4 hours ago
@KingdomHeartz93 Patching. Patching can remove things like DACUS and fix any glitches or exploits found and practiced in competitive play. When was the last time you saw someone doing something like DACUS in Street Fighter IV? It just doesn't exist. No glitches or bugs to abuse there, and if there is, they can patch and remove it. Nintendo doesn't support patching, so that's why Brawl failed as hard as it did. Wii U is said to focus heavily on good online, though.
genesisSOC 1 day ago
@genesisSOC
almost a perfectly worded comment man, I probably couldn't have said it better
KingdomHeartz93 1 day ago
@genesisSOC
I'm 100% with you on creating a balanced game however I want to state two things:
1. impossible to do, game mechanics are ALWAYS found (such as DACUS) that can change things and being able to predict it ALL isn't possible-Nintendo couldn't do it, and Brawl was one of the biggest projects ever for the company.
2. Meta Knights don't win every match -_____-
go to Smashboards and learn something, as of 2009/10 studies they win about 35-40% of tourneys which is big, but he is beatable.
KingdomHeartz93 1 day ago
@VinceOfAllTrades As a game designer, I will play every character extensively and make sure they're all perfectly balanced with each other. I may have to sacrifice some uniqueness for that, but that is a very well justified sacrificed. I would rather have a Link and Toon Link be perfectly even with each other than have a Meta Knight win every match regardless of skill.
genesisSOC 6 days ago
@genesisSOC so you're going to main every character?
VinceOfAllTrades 6 days ago
@VinceOfAllTrades I listen to my self. I've gamed for long enough to be able to analyze things for my self and decide for my self what is a truly good game. If I don't agree with what my players want, too bad for them. It's my game, my rules. And I believe anytime you lose, it should be your fault and yours alone. That's what I'm going to push for, whether they like it or not.
genesisSOC 6 days ago
@genesisSOC and that's understandable, but there's always going to be people complaining something's too good and others saying it's too bad. So who do you listen to? And I guess that's where the incrementation comes in.
VinceOfAllTrades 6 days ago
@VinceOfAllTrades I don't think so. I don't think there should ever be a moment when you lose because of a bad match up, or because of a glitch, or because of just bad game design/something a designer missed. With frequent patches, it lessens the chance of any given player suffering because of something like that. I don't want my player base to ever feel like they lost because of something outside their control, or because of something I designed with faults.
genesisSOC 6 days ago
@genesisSOC because they're broken and dominant. I'm not saying no patches ever, I just think your increments way too small. A patch a month might be nice (after a final release).
VinceOfAllTrades 6 days ago
@VinceOfAllTrades If people want familiarity, why did every one hate Yun for so long? Why do people hate Meta Knight so much? Why do people hate Sentinel? It's time for a new generation, it's time for progress, and it's time to put these "90s limitations" behind us. We live in 2012 now, it's time we competitively game like we do.
genesisSOC 6 days ago
izaw vs quicksilver
SpinyStarCraft 6 days ago
@genesisSOC um...in Brawl I main Toon Link. In Melee I main Gannondorf. In AE2012 I main Dictator. In UMvC3 I main She-Hulk. None of them are close to top tier. I'm just saying in slower games that are technical like KoF and SF I'd say people want familiarity.
VinceOfAllTrades 6 days ago
@VinceOfAllTrades Eventually, those who are "best" and those who have "advantages" would start to even out over time and cease to have such huge leads over any given character. While you might have a very very slight advantage, it wouldn't be enough to cause any real frustration or have a consistent lead over anyone else. I'll make sure of that, so that people like you are forced to win on skill, not advantages.
genesisSOC 6 days ago
@genesisSOC Well I wouldn't have mains. I'd use who was currently "best", obviously your goal is to create perfect balance but obviously that's not possible. So I'd probably switch characters a lot since no one's at an advantage and then just give up because every time I get used to something it changes.
VinceOfAllTrades 6 days ago
@VinceOfAllTrades No, what it'd do is relieve the necessity of tier lists and living with your mains' "bad matchups" make it where you can constantly feel fresh, along with all your opponents, with all your favorite characters and have a fair and equal chance of winning each time. Bi weekly patches would keep the game running smoothly and remove a lot of the frustrations that you feel every time you play the game. I think you're just afraid of your mains getting nerfed.
genesisSOC 6 days ago
@genesisSOC yeah, I guess I'm just thinking let's say if Capcom just started pumping out biweekly patches for SF, I'd be pissed because I know how my mains work in that game. Start changing things and now I'm not as familiar with my character, certain pokes may be dominant one week but not the next. That'd frustrate me a lot. But if you're just starting with a totally dynamic game there's nothing to get used to besides fundamental mechanics right?
VinceOfAllTrades 6 days ago
@VinceOfAllTrades No, from a competitive perspective it needs constant changes and rebalances to REMAIN competitive. Also, I don't want to focus on long drawn out combos combat. I prefer Street Fighter over MvsC, and Smash Bros Brawl over Melee. That's because in combo based games, you spend less time actually fighting and more time comboing or getting comboed. It's not near as fun as actually fighting and playing "footsy" with your opponent.
genesisSOC 6 days ago
@genesisSOC I'm just saying, from a competitive perspective if you frequently change things it's hard to stay dedicated, even if it's only a frame here or there because it'll most likely change at least 1 combo. I'm also assuming you're making a fighting game.
VinceOfAllTrades 1 week ago
like a bozz! but srsly, no sense for good music~
Critical2Touch 1 week ago
@VinceOfAllTrades Is that why League of Legends is officially the biggest MMO (has more active players than WoW, and none of them are bots) and Star Craft 2 is the biggest E-Sport? Yeah, that's what I thought. People aren't complaining about MvsC3. Patches = a great thing.
genesisSOC 1 week ago
Damn you managed to make Samus awesome.
EP1KSHAOWZ 1 week ago
i didn't know SS was this intense lol this multiplayer?
TheEvilguy123 1 week ago
@genesisSOC Sorry, but no one would be dedicated to that. People are complaining that MvC3 ONLY lasted 9 months before being patched.
VinceOfAllTrades 1 week ago