2 of 3: The problem of suffering - stalemating with the "no cognitive dissonance" Epydemic2020

My response to Epydemic2020's video Atheistic Questions, Theistic Answers, Agnostic Conclusions.

RE: Why nature's indifference to suffering (natural disasters, wildlife suffering, etc.) clashes with Christianity's notion of a Benign Omnipotent Creator, and the theist's resulting cognitive dissonance.

Sources cited in this series:

Epydemic2020's video The Problem of Evil, Is It a problem? Logical and Evidential Formulations Addressed - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ySUoboxsmI&feature=channel_page

His nine arguments:

(1) God's purpose is not to provide us with easy, convenient lives. Humanity's purpose in life is not happiness, but a knowledge of God and relationship with God (an extension of #3, the "suffering benefits us" argument).

(2) God gives us Free Will, and humans cause evil and suffering.

(3) Suffering benefits us (as expanded upon in arguments 1, 4, and 6).

(4) Suffering helps us appreciate pleasure: here on earth, and especially in heaven (an extension of #3, the "suffering benefits us" argument)

(5) We rebel against God and embrace sin (an extension of #2, the Free Will argument)

(6) Temporary suffering can help us later on (an extension of #3, the "suffering benefits us" argument)

(7) Death is actually a blessing: a transition from this life to the next

(8) Moral evils sometimes cause natural evils (an extension of #2, the Free Will argument)

(9) Humans are too finite to comprehend an Infinite God.

My video response called Theists have "answers" to the problem of suffering, but the answers are unconvincing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d76SG4HC0TY&feature=response_watch

Epydemic2020's response "Atheistic Questions, Theistic Answers, Agnostic Conclusions" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yypd0kdMGbg&feature=response_watch

My video series "The Problem of Suffering: the 7 Supernatural Answers vs. the 1 Naturalistic" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w2pn66VVWk&feature=PlayList&p=2E827A1...

YouTuber Evid3nc3's video "2.0 Deconversion: The God Concept" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12rP8ybp13s&feature=channel_page

John Loftus's "Why I Became An Atheist: a former preacher rejects Christianity" - http://www.amazon.com/Why-Became-Atheist-Preacher-Christianity/dp/1591025923/...

Lee Strobel's "The Case for Faith: A journalist investigates the toughest objections to Christianity" - http://www.amazon.com/Case-Faith-Journalist-Investigates-Christianity/dp/0310...

By Todd Allen Gates, author of "Dialogue with a Christian Proselytizer"

LINK TO CUSTOMER REVIEWS ON AMAZON:
http://www.amazon.com/Dialogue-Christian-Proselytizer-Allen-Gates/dp/16014508...

Link to eBook: http://booklocker.com/books/2739.html

Link to free PDF excerpt: http://assets.booklocker.com/pdfs/2739s.pdf

My three YouTube channels:

- http://youtube.com/user/ToddGates - my musician channel

- http://youtube.com/user/ToddAllenGates - where I discuss the ideas in "Dialogue with a Christian Proselytizer"

- http://youtube.com/user/ToddAllenGates2 - where I discuss the ideas in my book "Hunting, Gathering, & Videogames" (such as "Why do we have to work?" and "Why do we have to use money?" and "How should we define 'success'?")

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[STFUNOWlol]

I think a good way around the "God moves in mysterious ways" argument is to then claim that if that is true, you can NEVER question religious texts. If god says stone people who work on the sabbath - god works in mysterious ways. You can't question anything, no matter how crazy it sounds, because god works in mysterious ways. Nothing needs to make sense any more.

[ToddAllenGates]

> You can't question anything, no matter how crazy it sounds, because god works in mysterious ways.

The scariest theists are those who will agree whole-heartedly!

[ProfMTH]

Great point about the weakness and uselessness of an argument that is compatible with any possible situation. This doesn't get brought up nearly often enough in the context of the theist-nontheist debate.

We still see the primitive biblical notion -- and, more broadly, mythological notion -- that natural disaster is the result of divine wrath. However, at least among Christians, it's seems to be popular only with the oddest elements of the apologetic set, e.g., Pat Robertson.

[ToddAllenGates]

@thejewishagnostic

As an atheist, I agree with the conclusion.

But as far as the structure of your argument goes, I would question Premise 1. Because there are those whose belief in a Higher Power is based mainly on First Cause and Design--and those two arguments say nothing about the alleged Higher Power necessarily being Omniscient, Omnipotent, or All-Good.

(I discuss this more in my video series "The Problem of Suffering: the 7 Supernatural Answers vs. the 1 Naturalistic.")

[ToddAllenGates]

@FujiwaraNoGo

> I would say that the existence of suffering makes it impossible for a tri-omni god to exist. Such a being could and would bypass suffering and obtain greater goods immediately.

Agreed ... unless one buys into the "mysterious ways" argument (of course, that aproach is so broad that it can justify *any* belief, no matter how bizarre).

[ToddAllenGates]

@myerssa7

> the "mysterious ways" apology abrogates a finite mind's capacity to render any of the gods' actions as 'good' every bit as much as it destroys judgement on actions as 'evil'

Quite true!

[myerssa7]

@ToddAllenGates As you hinted, theodicy is not a paradox in Greek, Babylonian, or deist mythologies, as the gods are not proposed to be simultaneously omnipotent & omnibenevolent. What you failed to mention is that the "mysterious ways" apology abrogates a finite mind's capacity to render any of the gods' actions as 'good' every bit as much as it destroys judgement on actions as 'evil'. A theist's finite mind is left unable to discern if the object of his worship is worthy of praise or scorn.

[ToddAllenGates]

> God made mosquitoes ... to feed the bats... God made bats ... to eat the mosquitoes

God always has a plan!

> Love your posts

Thank you!

[zach9899]

When I was a little kid I asked my mother why God made mosquitos, and she said to feed the bats. Then I asked why did God have to make bats, and she answered, "to eat the mosquitos." Alright. That's all I got. Love your posts. bye.

[ToddAllenGates]

> that just needed some quotation marks around it

Thanks!

[brainfoodlunch]

"Nothing demonstrates the absurdity of the Bible better than people who take it seriously!"

Sorry, that just needed some quotation marks around it. Haha!