Lets talk about Healthcare.

I tried to stay out of it. I really did.

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[SCRYER1973]

In America the powers of government are limited to the protection of individual rights. Health care doesn't qualify as an individual right because nobody has a duty to provide me with health care. The only way to establish universal health care is if the government enforceably obligates every citizen to pay for it. Such an act violates the Constitution of the United States and the right to be left alone.

[LatumWay]

@SCRYER1973 Good for america.

[SCRYER1973]

@LatumWay: Good by what standard? 

[LatumWay]

@SCRYER1973 I was being sarcastic.

[Turelx]

Calm down, man.

We geddit. No one is out to hurt you or your little country...

Feeling any better now? :) Maybe you should go to the NHS right now... I think you might be slightly unstable.

[LatumWay]

Sorry, but its pisses me off when people lie like that.

[prodigyat9]

Hi! My name is Doctor Lying Sack of Shit and the insurance companies who control all my income told me that I think single payer health care is bad.

[negrosaurus]

Apart from all the vague threats about possible loss of quality and choices, this is the craziest part:

"Bureaucrats should never be able to deny or delay the care that doctors provide."

... because the insurance companies aren't even the least bit bureaucratic, right?

[insidexistance]

@Tammylita I second that.

[SCRYER1973]

@MrThahey: By "government monopoloy" I specifically mean the Federal McCarran-Ferguson Act. It prohibits interstate competition between health insurance companies. The cost of an out-of-state insurer to enter another state market is often high so individuals have little choice about what coverage they want. Since the insurance company is prohibited from interstate competition, legislators can force them to cover services that drive up premiums.

[SCRYER1973]

@MrThahey: Essentially, government is a gun. Any government endeavor uses force as a means to achieve its ends. Tax rates in Sweden are commonly cited as among the highest in the world behind Hungary, France, Germany and Belgium. Payroll, corporate and individiual taxes are considerably higher there than in the U.S. It appears that Swedes only retain a portion of what they earn through their productivity. Do individuals in Sweden have the freedom to opt out of contributing to public healthworks?

[MrThahey]

@SCRYER1973 public healthcare works very well in countries like Sweden, in fact the Swedes have the best healthcare in the world. How does that follow your "government monopoly" argument?

[SCRYER1973]

@endauthority: It is in my own self-interest to contribute to the protection of individual rights.

Communism is sacrificing the individual to the group. Without private property man's means of survival is cut off. He is forced to sacrifice to the state for the good of the whole. He who preaches this doctrine wants to be the state.

Nobody has a duty to provide me with anything. I have a right to my life and the freedoms required to live it. Nobody has a right to take it from me.

[SCRYER1973]

@Tammylita: Oxygen isn't a scarce resource.

If you want to bring health insurance costs down then remove the gov't safety net and force insurance companies to compete. Gov't interventions have made a monopoly out of the health insurance market.

Rights are not guarantees to a commodity. They are a guarantee that if you earn the commodity you will own it. If you cannot earn it you can only obtain it from someone else by his consent. You're not entitled to someone else's property.

[Tammylita]

@endauthority "Freedom" in this country has become something of a misnomer. It describes the "freedom" to own a business or to have low taxes; health care, living conditions, marriage rights, etc. are all "unconstitutional."

[Tammylita]

@SCRYER1973 What part of a right to "LIFE, liberty, and happiness" don't you understand? People who can't pay for health care in this country DIE. Do you understand that? They DIE. Because they can't afford to live. And this doesn't seem messed up to you? That's like saying, "I shouldn't be forced to breathe oxygen. How dare the government build trees in my neighborhood? I shouldn't feel I have to share the air!"

[endauthority]

@SCRYER1973 So then you admit the following(You also completely avoided the issue at hand, as well. However, I expected you would):

We do not have to provide a police force, or military force. We also do not have to recognize a government that enforces property rights, we as a society can simply choose to be communist.

Duty isnt rooted in mysticism and morality comes from LOGIC. Freedom its self comes from logic, its too bad people are illogical and think property rights = freedom

[SCRYER1973]

@endauthority: Individual rights are valued if life is valued. To negate individual rights is the same as denying the individual's right to his own life. The opposite and more popular view is that the individual has a moral duty to sacrifice his life for the good of the group. Duty is a misnomer; a word rooted in mysticism. No legitimate authority exists that can impose moral duties. Morality derives from the freedom to choose. When rights are decided by popular vote then no one's life is safe.