The Great Debate

The fine-tuning argument is NOT fine-tuned to assist believers of particular religions to argue for the truth of their religion's claims.

References cited below.

Inspiration for this one came from listening to a debate between Christopher Hitchens and Frank Turek, co-author of "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist"
(Geisler, N and Turek, F. Crossway Books, Wheaton Illinois, 2004).
Turek's first 20 minutes were very much like the first three of this video ie, the arguments from cosmology, teleology (the apparent designed nature of the universe), and morality. Some parts of it are direct quotations, other parts are paraphrased, and others I picked up from other theists' videos/writings. To be fair to Turek, he acknowledged that these arguments did NOT lend credibility to the bible on their own, and invited Hitchens to a debate that would deal with the reliability of the bible. I ask, though if you're going to admit that the cosmological argument doesn't prove what you want to communicate, then why bother using it? Christians arent REALLY interested in making atheists into DEISTS, are they? (That's certainly NOT what they're called upon to do in the bible).

These cosmological-type arguments are just so broad and general, that it is a MASSIVE LEAP to go from them, to suddenly arguing for a deity whose name you know, whose values you know (on such things as dietary restrictions and opinions about how you should cut your hair, and, of course, opinions about foreskins), and who apparently has called you into a personal relationship with it. A leap SO MASSIVE, in fact, that no Christian would ever accept it from a Muslim, or vice versa, let alone from a Hindu or a devotee of ancient Egyptian gods.

So this video is not aimed at, or attempting to parody, Frank Turek, but is aimed at those in the youtube Christian community who seem to think that their faith is defended by recourse to the cosmological argument.
Folks, it is NOT.
It never WILL be.
See how ridiculous it seems to you when it comes from someone of another faith? In fact, I found a site that uses ALL of the cosmological arguments that are usually used in defending Christianity, being used to "prove" the accuracy and truth of the Quran.
Here it is, see if these arguments convert you to Islam:
http://www.creationofuniverse.com/index.html

The point of having the atheist remain silent throughout is an attempt to point out two things:
a) that the more theists use these arguments, the more they are simply doing their opponents' work for them, and
b) that we as atheists (or more correctly as anti-theists, as I consider myself) can simply CONCEDE so many arguments and that are intended to stump us. CONCEDE the point, and show the christian that the argument does NOTHING to help them. NOTHING.
What rocks dream of : NOTHING!!!!


So what explains the incredible numbers and precision at the moments following the big bang?
I DON'T KNOW!
But hey, theist:::: neither do you.
And that's OK.

Maybe it was The Goddess...? Maybe it was Great Spirit...? Maybe it was mass consciousness....?
Maybe we'll never know....!
______________________________


Other sources of information for this video:

The Hitchens/Turek debate can be seen on youtube (in pieces) or at:
http://www.vimeo.com/1904911

http://www.indiayogi.com/content/indgods/brahma.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas
http://www.egyptianmyths.net/amon.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun


The quote about he ratio between the gravitational constant and the electromagnetec constant came from:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atheismintro2.htm (accessed April 29 , 2009).
I dont know whether its scientifically accurate but being as the character is quoting a religious website for religious purposes, I dont mind if the information is inaccurate.

Hawking, S. A Brief History Of Time, Bantam Press, London: 1988, p. 121-125

Dawkins, R. 1996 The Blind Watchmaker, Norton & Co, NY p116

Category:

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Tags:

• Christianity
• bible
• design
• intelligent
• cosmology
• teleology
• god
• islam

[finalsmasher]

so NonStampCollector, I must ask: if a Deist or other non-religious theist were to use the cosmological arguement, how would you respond?

[NonStampCollector]

@finalsmasher Simple. By asking them which god or gods they're talking about, and why.

[Drgamedood]

@NonStampCollector Are you an idiot? He said a DEIST. Not a religious theist. So asking them which god their talking about is a nonsensical question. You fail.

[NonStampCollector]

@Drgamedood You're partially correct. Checking which god they're talking about would certainly ascertain whether they really WERE a deist, though, wouldn't it? If their answer was really "I don't know", then I would have no dispute with them.

By the way: are you an idiot? You used the wrong "they're/their/there". You fail.

[TruthSayerLieSlayer]

@AziMeX Don't get me started. And what is the worst sin to Christians? Is it murder? Nope. Child molestation? Not even close. The worst sin is "denying the Holy Spirit". Whatever that means. Based on their beliefs whole nations of people are going to hell. I was raised in a Christian home to be Christian and do only Christian things. It's like a brainwashing cult of high praising zombies.

[eyeonwashparish]

The worst part of it all is that the religious view the nonreligious as if they are a bunch of murderous uncontrollable wildebeests. Even with their track record as fresh as it is they still believe this. How arrogant can you be to think that people are psychos just because they don't believe they'll go to hell if they don't believe? Arrogance on an astronomical scale. Unmeasurable scale. But don't worry, it's not arrogance, it's truth...er, it's faith...er, it's whatever!

[Applesmaush]

@strengthinweakness1

Considering that praying is an act of talking to yourself, I'd have to agree with your thoughts on self worship and pride in your religion.

[inexplicablequantum]

NonStampCollector's videos are exceptionally entertaining. I just found out about them today and I've been watching them for about three hours now :)

[neoman121]

At the end he's just thinking. *At least I'm not the one going out getting myself killed...*

[thabood]

I ♥ you NSC

[paramattic70]

@j919or I have peace and well being. I live for my beautiful wife and 9y/o son. My career as a paramedic is rewarding and makes me feel alive. I have purpose and a high moral compass. I respect and treat Earth well. I dont hate, condemn, steal, murder or hide behind faith. I am an Atheist.

[paramattic70]

@j919or j919or comments total nonsense on a bunch of NSC videos without even watching. He's on a crusade to convert us. You have Diarrhea of the mouth that starts with a virus in your brain. Stop being such a Scrotum and think logically and reasonably. Common sense is ok. Here's some advice. Visit a museum. Visit a library. Visit a university. Watch Science ch, Discovery ch, History ch, Nat Geo. Read Scientific America. Talk to a 5th grader. The Moon is not made of cheese and there is no God. A

[advers1078]

@nn101198 to what arguments? if you mean the statement that the universe is too finely tune for god to not exist; then like the video demonstrates that's an argument applicable to any god and considering the fact that there are various claims of god that cannot coexist (e.g. Yahweh and Allah) it cannot possibly prove the existence of any theist gods. Frm the atheist position lack of knowledge isn't a justification for any assertion. It certainly can be a justification for deist but not a theist.

[taylan637]

7:40 * transcribed audio* 'but my religion has a really old pork' lol

[1zacster]

@j919or you do realize you are being childish by not taking responsibility for your own actions.