Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson: Doctors

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[tlsimpson]

Of course we see the theme in context - but nothing is out of context. I'm sure Neil is a nice man, who didn't like pre-med students, and made a comment. The comment was out of context from his point, and diminished his point. Wow- a two year old video and still getting comments.

[SaganAppreciationSoc]

When you consider how frequent medical "mistakes" are, how common misdiagnosis is, it certainly fits with their (MDs) general poor showing in the sciences.

If med schools were more rigorous, we'd all be healthier.

[tlsimpson]

What data are you basing "when you consider how frequent medical 'mistakes' are"? Carl Sagan said that his smart friends went to medical school, and he didn't think he could.

What is your basis that MD's have a poor showing in the sciences? Do you know the minimum GPA for medical school entrance -- and how it is weighted to how they do in the sciences?

Further, what is your data that medical schools are not rigorous?

[chunkymonkey043]

Physicians aren't trained the same way physicists are. One of the core principles of a physics education is the ability to think creatively and independently, problem solve while evaluating all avenues, view everything with skepticism, prove all assumptions and claims by others... Sure, both physicians and physicists undergo training in their respective fields, but that argument is specious. Does med school teach the same intellectual values?

[tlsimpson]

The scientific method is universal, and physicians have to view everything with skepticism. We view patients that way easily. When you ask if physicians teach the same intellectual values - the short answer is yes. They are both rigorous disciplines. My argument was simply that he was using an anecdote, backed by an anecdote, to make a point. That is hardly the way a skeptic should argue.

[dgdfhfghgfhgfgffjhj]

Another possibility is that the patient reported that "the doctor said I was going to die for sure", when the doctors may have in fact said "10% chance of surviving".

Many people just can't handle uncertainty, and everything has to have a solid answer. I would assume that people who are likely to scream MIRACLE!!! are among those. In non-medical situations, believers in religious or psychic superstition often assign undue credit to things which are only "unlikely", but not impossible.

[tlsimpson]

There are those cancers that have spontaneous cures- they are few, but we know them. People with malignant melanoma and renal cell carcinomas are two that have been widely metastatic, then disappear. The chance of that is less than 5%.

But, when the central argument is that the doctor's are idiots because he had some bad students in physics class - well, that is a rather bad place to start. Again, a skeptic shouldn't base a premise on an anecdote.

[shoshanq]

He taught and researched at Princeton, which has the leading astrophysics department in the country if not the world. His Ph.D. (from Columbia with a BA from Harvard) is real Hunkola. Just because he now spends time popularizing science doesn't mean he isn't a scientist. Second, he wasn't insulting the medical profession and should not be held responsible if tlsimpson misconstrues what he was trying to say.

[JasonKeis]

You took Tyson completely out of context.

[MrPsychedelic11]

I'd recommend watching the whole conference, rather than just that segment to understand the theme in context

[MrPsychedelic11]

The point of Tyson's outlook is that people are so eager to support their divine beliefs by saying "god cured me" than even open their mind to the fact that the science could have been wrong, meaning either the equipment used had slight mechanical errors, leading the doctor to assume cancer when they didnt have it, or the doctor just wasnt trained properly. But the health part isnt the concern Neil deGrasse Tyson was bringing up it was just one of the many examples which could lead someone to a

[iamathometoday]

I absolutely agree with you. His attack on AMA and "idiot doctors" are entirely uncalled for. A better example would focus on another scientifically plausible explanation which resulted in the statistical outlier, and not God healing the patient. It doesn't matter if he meant to only condemn some idiot physicians. His blatantly negative views on the other academic area is just unprofessional. Also, I think 51 people who downvoted you clearly didn't understand why you were offended. ;)

[jolohmm]

You have to pay attention, Doctor. He said "Not all of them are smart". Tyson didn't say they're all dumb, he just said that "not all of them are smart".

He also did not condemn all physicians, he simply said that some are not as great as the others, yet the ones who aren't as great are still accounted with the same respect as the great ones. Essentially, if you compare it with physics, it would be like saying every physicist needs the same respect as Albert Einstein had.

[commonsensrules]

Doctors and physicists are both human. I have witnessed a wide range of doctors across mutliple fields and i can say one thing without doubt- Their are great doctors and their are horrible doctors.

I imagine the same holds true for physicists. Neither is in a postion to comment on the validity of wheather an event constitutes the label miracle.

Both should focus on what counts-doing their job to the best of their ability.

[azcentralsurprise]

Over the years I worked in three different hospitals - too many horror stories to recount in such a space.

I have friends who are drs.

I have family who are drs.

lots of drs. make mistakes, lots of mistakes.

lots of drs. driving passions - golf, mercedes benz, spoiled wives and kids.

some drs. think that the md should be replaced by GOD.

To be fair - I do know a few upper case Doctors - a precious and dwindling few.

[TheDoggedWonder]

I think you may have missed what he was getting it. It wasn't about doctors being stupid. It was about people being more willing to believe in something as unlikely as a miracle from God versus human error.

Tyson might have been better off with some facts and figures if he was trying to prove that these events happen. However, I don't really see him trying to convince people that it actually happens, so much as he's trying to get people to think about it. Most people know that this goes on.

[pnickel000]

Also, not all premedical students become doctors; in fact MOST do not.

[pnickel000]

Thank you for this.

1) Most professors do not even know what their students' majors are.

2) Medical students are some of the most brilliant, logical students I have ever encountered.

3) Tyson clearly has a grudge with the medical community. Maybe he's just jealous of House.