"China can't achieve 8 percent growth." Ah but they did!

Heiko Khoo debates at speakers' corner with advocates of the mainstream bourgeois view that China is growing and strong because it is capitalist. The Marxist speaker disagrees and says China is growing so fast and so successful because it is based on a planned economy with state ownership of the means of producing wealth a system of production which proves the superiority of socialist economics.

Category:

News & Politics

Tags:

• china
• economics
• marxism
• capitalism
• socialism
• planned economy
• communism

[heikokhoo]

This still does not clarify why a state with 'worse' features, as far as your theory of the negative results of interventionism is concerned, should perform better in the deepest recession than the 'better' countries, where the state allows the market a far freer hand. Given the integration of China with the world economy, why did China avert the worst? You claimed an ability to impess with predictions, now you seem to be scared to make any.

[cabgt]

I fogot to say in reply to your China bubble evidence query. There is evidence (in simple terms for lack of time/space): China has the some credit expansions that all other economies had preceding busts. Artificially low interest rates, excessive credit expansion and fiscal stimulus and more. This creates liquidity to flow into various asset classes and the misallocation of many resources and malinvestments. View China's money supply data. Also govts create varous moral hazards via regulation

[heikokhoo]

@cabgt I did not say there were no bubbles, but does the Austrian school have an explanation as to why China's economy did not respond in the same negative way to the great recession? You claim a free market would have averted bubbles, but if the state had not countered the impact of the market, tens of millions more would be impoverished. Your bubbles theory does not specify the effect of the bust alternative nor its timing, use some of that great predictive skill, state when China will bust!

[cabgt]

I'd happily debate this gentleman (on the podium) live anyday. There are serious holes in his assertions. The demise of recent economies has been due to excessive intervention in the free-market and like Europe, the USA etc. China too will fall as it is currently in a bubble created by the govt/state. Also, GDP figures from China are not reliable, let alone any country for that matter. I'm only touching the surface here. I find very few socialists who are learned economists and/or students.

[heikokhoo]

@cabgt I don't know where you are located but you can always come to speakers corner and debate with me any Sunday afternoon.

You argument that the demise of economies is rooted in excessive interventionism seems most odd. What economics school argues that?

You state China's economic growth is a bubble, this is also not based on evidence. In the main the state invested in railways, airports, roads etc to help future growth. (not that there are no bubbles, but they are not dominant)

[heikokhoo]

100000000years has made a comment on

"capitalism is the engine and socialism is the sterring wheel"

(sorry I accidentally deleted this in some sort of javascript interface whilst preparing a comment. Heiko)

[ill318]

more people should do public talks like that - props!

I and many others believe we now live in a Corporate Oligarchy. serving the top 5%.

you don't have to look to hard to back it up.

open corruption, massive conflicts of interest, a under educated populace very into reality tv shows, etc, etc.

soviet russia had 17 tv newspapers all basically saying the same thing ; \

[SiberianWolfProSCO]

you must make a video which clearly points out why the whole notion about "China being capitalist" is pure BS.

[lSzeSze]

I dunno why but i only got one word in my head right now. Bullshit.

[ssss12598]

@dlwx1988 本来就这样先养肥了再过来宰一刀，因为他们为了维持他们的高福利­就必须要剥削其他国家不停的印钞票让其他国家来买自己的国债来养­活自己

[TechoMarxist]

exact opposite: because Machinery and Technology can eclipse human labor one-hundred or thousand fold, this makes it so wealth will naturally concentrate to the owners of the means of production because their "labor power" is manifold times greater then someone relying on his or her own "human" labor power. What this translates to is that owners of large stock and creditors will be many times richer then the average worker.

This is a Scientific Theory and it holds as true as Darwinian theory.

[TechoMarxist]

In other words the Scientific-Material test of pro-capitalist and pro-socialist theories of the economy depend on whether or not capitalism naturally spreads wealth or concentrates wealth. Again, Smith and his followers predicted that wealth would spread because people would be paid by their work- and Hobbes had already established the principle of equality (i.e. even if one man is superior, two men will still outweigh him. )

While Marx, living during the industrial revolution predicted the

[TechoMarxist]

That is from a pro-capitalist economic website:

economictheories.

org

The only thing it is wrong about is that it says Marx doesn't state the mechanism. He does- Constant capital displaces variable capital.

AKA Machine "labor" displaces human labor. Thus while Adam Smith and his ilk predicted in a society where labor-power determines pay wealth would spread (because nobody literally has 100 times more labor power) but machines can have that much more power, and confer it to their owners.

[TechoMarxist]

The irrefutable major scientific premise of Karl Marx is that the economy is centralizing. This scientific theory (and I use the term theory purposely here, because it has sufficient data to be considered well proven within science) is apparent to anyone studying the economic data:

"Possibly no other vision of the future of capitalism advanced by Marx has been more prophetic than his law of the concentration and centralization of capital."

[roidrage420]

re: video description: a marxist speaker credits china's growth to 'planned economy'?obviously, like most chinese (and americans), he knows nothing about marxism but is confusing it with state-capitalism.

[dlwx1988]

@ssss12598 我怎么觉得西方先把咱们捧上天，然后等着咱失误的那天好落井下石­呢

[ssss12598]

不要把我们看得那么高，但是也别轻视我们！我们仍然是1个最大的­发展中国家，革命尚未成功，同志还需努力！