Secular Morality - (2) Why Character Counts

Video response to question Epydemic2020 - youtube theist - asked me about Secular Morality in a PM sometime ago...

Without God... Why Should We Be Moral Consistently - Such as when no one's looking?

Epydemic2020's Channel:

http://www.youtube.com/epydemic2020

Category:

People & Blogs

Tags:

• morality
• christianity
• atheism
• religion
• ethics
• secular humanism
• sam harris
• apologetics
• mere christianity
• christians
• jesus
• ethical theories
• philosophy
• william lane craig
• c.s. lewis

[hjx23]

myintellectualjourney I think you would make more headway if you instead of using the word character, used self-image. Just maybe, is it easier to relate to.

[myintellectualjourny]

@hjx23

Thanks hjx23. I'm not quite sure what you mean though. I guess the confusion is, the word "character" has a lot of meanings. But here I mean it in the "moral excellence and firmness; a man of sound character" sense or aka: someone's being moral consistently. And then trying to say specifically why that has value for people - even if from only a secular perspective.

Does that speak to what you meant or did you have something else in mind? Thanks.

[droptozro]

Sorry, I'm going to have to tear this apart and make your views consistent though--because it seems to be something you're mentioning often, but not doing.

1) Where do these "secular" morals come from in your view?

2) Why hold to them? None of the above reasons are convincing. If they are to be consistent, then I may make my personal "happiness" above that of others, or a group of others--and at the cost of others, even unto death. Morality cannot be subjective, or it's not morality...

[myintellectualjourny]

@droptozro

(cont)

Thanks for the book recommendation. I have to admit I'm not too eager to read another C.S. Lewis book as I've revisited my copy of Mere Christianity & found it full of unfounded assumptions. Maybe - if you're up for it - you can bring some of the finer points to my attention and we can discuss them... here or in regards to videos that follow? I would be interested in hearing those but not reading a Lewis book in its entirely now. Appreciate your thoughts and feedback ;)

[droptozro]

@myintellectualjourny

I didn't think Mere Christianity was that great also.  Interesting read, but there are many things in it I disagree with.. especially the war moral. I've researched the early church around the time directly after Christ--they were directly against war now that Christ had come---and knew their newfound connection to God would now be sufficient and He would listen to protect them. some try to even say Pax Romana was part of the early church prayers... coincidence? dunno...

[myintellectualjourny]

@Epydemic2020

Are you saying that we're not creatures of habit? That the decisions we make do not effect what we are more inclined to do in the future? I think this is a pretty basic observation of human nature reinforced by - though made prior to - fields like psychology.

But I'm still unclear on what an example of an immoral act in one's interest in the short-term you'd give that we don't personally & societally have an interest in limiting. Can you provide an example of this?

[Epydemic2020]

@myintellectualjourny

Also, I think you are assuming that long term interests are superior to short term interests. I see no reason to think this is objectively the case, especially given an unknown lifespan.

[Epydemic2020]

@myintellectualjourny

I just don't think the "creatures of habit" reason really holds up. I can choose when to be moral or immoral regardless of my past decisions, and it doesn't seem like anyone can objectively tell me that I ought to value habitual morality over the benefits of occasional immorality.

[myintellectualjourny]

Thanks droptozro. I plan to do a video on why - human morality - is neither a matter of mere opinion nor preference - here shortly. The quick of it is looking at what these words mean to us & how the concerns behind them are grounded in our nature. We can certainly both agree that anyone who talks about morality as a matter of mere opinion or preference is talking about something else. Also, I will do a video on how people not being moral doesn't change its value to us. Ppl can be wrong.

[droptozro]

(cont)

morality becomes opinion. Opinions have no bearing on reality.

I accept that we all have alike morality because we were made in the image of God, and God is good(also meaning the standard, but not limited in my view).

Why would you have any reason to think we're all to accept your opinion then? or why do the masses "seem" to accept your view--but don't live up to it?

MIJ--I think you would profit from reading CS Lewis' "Abolition of Man" if you haven't, it's free online, just google