The Logical Conclusions of the Labor Theory of Property

as promised, here's the article:

http://www.abolishhumanrentals.org/?page_id=149

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[redbloodblackflag]

"libertarian socialism" is a contradiction.. "libertarian socialist theory" is complete nonsense and falls on it's face in light of logic. "anarcho capitalist" is redundant. A group voluntarily collectivizing, collectively owning and operating some means of production/commune.. IS STILL A GROUP OWNING PROPERTY/MEANS OF PRODUCTION.

[eboyd32]

@redbloodblackflag first and foremost, "anarcho"-capitalism is a fairly new concept that dates back no further than the 1950's when Murray Rothbard first coined the term. the so-called predecessors of his ideology within the individualist anarchist strains, such as Lysander Spooner, were for the most part staunchly anti-capitalist. the idea of a group voluntarily collectivizing may be ownership, however, it is also worker control over the means of production, which makes it...

[eboyd32]

...socialistic. if you want to call it capitalism, fine. i disagree because capitalism is defined as "capitalist control over the means of production" which implies that the only difference between capitalism and socialism is who is doing the owning and whether or not there is an implied economic hierarchy, but as long as workers have control over the means of production i am ok. i would not, however, be ok with people being legally forced to give control to workers though.

[redbloodblackflag]

Anarchists are concerned with erquality of RIGHTS. Anarchists are not, and cannot logically be concerned with say- everyone having access to the plow, or everyone having their own plow...Anarchists are concerned with everyones RIGHT to have their own plow.

[eboyd32]

@redbloodblackflag but they can be concerned that those that do have access to a plow and actually labor hard with it don't have a say in how much their work with that plow is worth, regardless of if the wage they are paid is "fair" or not. worker empowerment in the workplace not only allows for more fair wages to be agreed upon, but it also often ensures higher levels of productivity and a better chance of business survival.

[redbloodblackflag]

Communists are concerned with "collectivization" of "means of production," and "economic equality" (a delusion, and impossibility)- How will anarchists ensure "economic equality" without imposing some authoritarian overlord to make sure nobody is becoming "unequal" ?

[eboyd32]

@redbloodblackflag anarchists who are not communists aren't necessarily looking for economic equality. what we seek to do is create a new type of market that enables workers an equal say in the processes of the businesses for which they work in order to ensure, not economic equality, but a fair opportunity for the worker to earn what his work was actually worth -- "from each according to his ability, to each according to his LABOR", rather than "NEED".

[eboyd32]

...workplace democracy.

[eboyd32]

...in the range of 20 times what his normal employees make, much of which is non-labor income that he receives just because of his degree, seniority, how charismatic he is, his communication skills, etc., most of which are factors that have nothing to do with working hard (with the exception of the first one as that implies that he worked hard in the past at least). what i am trying to do is create a non-authoritative environment that is conducive to the furthering of...

[eboyd32]

@redbloodblackflag if i am using the equipment you bought and you have agreed to pay me a wage for my labor, over time i can accumulate enough capital to buy an equal share in your business, especially if i am working about as hard as you are. i am not trying to force you to sell me a portion of your business, but if we both agreed i could. the problem i see is not the small business owner who does pay employees relatively fairly, but rather the CEO of Gigantocorp who makes...

[eboyd32]

...norm to work at a workers' cooperative/collective someday in the near future. i don't need to enforce that idea. however, there are a lot of limits in the way that prevent worker coops from coming about, beyond market forces (most studies show that worker coops are more productive, efficient, last longer, ensure better job and income security, etc.), and i am calling for some principle changes to help that adaptation take place.

[eboyd32]

@redbloodblackflag the issue is inequality of contractual agreements imo. i have a bit of a newer outlook on contract law than what i present here, but i still oppose the idea that someone has the upper hand in a contractual agreement because of their ownership of property. the playing field needs to be even. both parties to a contract need to have equal bargaining ground. society is already shifting more and more towards workplace democracy. it will inevitably become the...