Early Christian Beliefs 2 of 4 (Apostolic authority)

What did Early Christians Believe? Are Protestants right? The teachings of the Early Church Fathers on Apostolic Authority.

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[ucimadvs1]

Reminds me of the Jewish leaders who were often bragging that they had Abraham as their father. John the baptist rebuked them, And do not think to say to yourselves, We have Abraham as our father. For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. I can only pray that many Catholics will see the emptiness of the Catholic bishops claim to infallible authority merely because of historical lineage.

[hockeyrulesus]

@ucimadvs1 John the Baptist, in this analogy, is telling the Jewish leaders that their relation to Abraham does not mean they don't need to repent. The teacher in this series is merely showing the succession of Bishops from the Apostles. The reason for this is to show the church Christ founded is still here. " And I say to you: That you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. " This means the True Church will always be here.

[em8802]

@hockeyrulesus They have tried to have ecumenical councils, and some think that the Photian robber synod is the 8th. Moreover, even their valid sacraments are illicit, unless in case of emergency (supplied jurisdiction)

[em8802]

@hockeyrulesus Since the 1960s people have become confused as to what the relationship is between the schismatic Greeks and the Roman Church. It seems as if Rome has given some validity to Greek jurisdiction, but it's doubtful at best. A priest needs jurisdiction, whether supplied or normal, in order to validly confer the three sacraments of confession, confirmation, or marriage. The Greeks have been deprived of this unambiguously for whatever time they have been in schism.

[hockeyrulesus]

@em8802 I don't know that this makes their confirmations, marriages, and confessions invalid, if they have valid Apostolic Orders. Having valid orders gives their Priesthood the power to have a valid sacraments as far as I'm told by my parish Priest, and what I've read. Their only fault is they are not in FULL communion with the Church, and they even admit to this, by refusing having any ecumenical councils until reunification. None since the break in 1200's.

[em8802]

@hockeyrulesus The eastern schismatics have valid orders, but not licit. They don't even have jurisdiction, which makes their confirmations, marriages, and confessions invalid. Though they receive supplied jurisdiction in the case of an emergency, it would only be useful for a Catholic, not even their own "Orthodox" flock. Moreover, being divorced from the magesterium, they do not teach with authority.

[hockeyrulesus]

@em8802 Though the Eastern Church is severed from unity with the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church always recognized the Eastern Church as fully Apostolic, for the Eastern Church is the only Church of schism that has a valid Apostolic Priesthood. This is why we (Catholics) call the Eastern Church the left lung of the Church, and this is the only Church that we are allowed to attend, if we can't find a Catholic Church by the way.

[Gazdo01]

@ucimadvs1 Reminds of the Pharasees, this jewish movement that didn't always exist, but came to be around the the second century BC, and CLAIMED authority on the interpretation of the texts and jewish Law by SELF-PROCLAMATION. They too believed their were righteous and justified simply by calling Abraham their father...

Rings a bell?

Protestants: self proclaimed, didn't always exist, Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, trying to destroy the Church of God, the Catholic Church, i.e. Verus Israel.

[LovingScrubbies]

And does it have to be forever? After all the christian claim is that they take the place of the Jews in the "old covenant".

[LovingScrubbies]

Even if one successfully makes the case Roman Catholicism is the true apostolic church, could it still not be "the truth" based on it's behavior?

[em8802]

@ucimadvs1 But the Eastern Orthodox are severed from unity with Peter, so in a sense you're correct that Apostolic Succession isn't everything. Peter's confession--and that of his successors--is the only real safeguard against heresy, and separation from the bishops of Rome, who hold that confession, is what constitutes schism.

[ucimadvs1]

@hockeyrulesus I appreciate your response. I really do, but my point is that we should not be accepting that any group teaches truth "because" of their lineage. The Pharisees ran into this same problem when claiming "Abrahamic" and "Mosaic" succession. We might be able to track our roots, but this doesn't mean that truth is being taught. The Eastern church has the same roots and can also trace themselves back to the Apostles but this doesn't mean much.