Meltdown A Global Warming Journey Part 2

Meltdown A Global Warming Journey Part 2

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[Sueezedtight]

@christo930 I can certainly agree with that position.

An "example" of the science is the latest kerfuffle about Steig etal versus O'donnell etal that you can find on most climate sites. What a debate about ethics and procedures.

A further example is the latest "crisis" alert from Nature where they publish through "pal" review a paper on why AGW increases climate variability based on spurious and variable data. See the W. Essenbach post at WUWT for an exposé about their approach to the "facts".

[christo930]

@Sueezedtight This is why, despite accepting the AGW science, I still don't believe in Cap And trade and want a free market solution. Furthermore, I feel that in the long run, as the free market solves the challenges of renewables, in the end, we will end up with cheaper energy than what we have now. Renewables can have high capital costs to create, but they have much cheaper operational costs, and these are just the first gen. Imagine what individuals pursuing self interest can accomplish!

[Sueezedtight]

@christo930 Fact check needed on that extinction regarding the role of [CO2] relative to volcanism and sulfur emissions acidifying the world.

OTOH, you clearly have a good grasp on how opportunists can take advantage of positions of power and influence to ravage our pocketbooks as well as the economy. The sources and causes may be different but the exploiters are all the same kind of human being. Taking advantage of the circumstances for self-enrichment, noble or altruistic pretensions aside.

[christo930]

@Sueezedtight At least one mass extinction was caused by co2 rise releasing methane from the oceans and an 18 degrees C increase in world wide temp.

Do you HONESTLY think that AGW is just a scheme to get our money? They do that without even passing any laws, just by debasing the currency. Every time the fed prints money (like QE1 and QE2), they steal your wealth. We don't need mass conspiracies for that.

[Sueezedtight]

@christo930 The science, other than math model predictions, doesn't support catastrophic scenarios. The empirical evidence shows that the earth is resilient and steady, even if it's pretty savage when human life forms are concerned. Ocean pH is like sea-level rise. Highly over-rated as a major issue or even problem. Historically, we are more in danger of plunging temperatures due to the next ice age. Hysterically, the CAGWers are desperate to get hold of our money and control over it. Not good.

[christo930]

@Sueezedtight There is the ph of the ocean to worry about, for example. There are feedbacks, like the methane which you admit is a problem. There is also the melting ice cap which has a very high albedo and an open ocean would absorb far more sun than an icecap. The fact that co2's warming affects aren't linear doesn't mean it's not a meaningful driver and it only has to tip the scales slightly to start feedback loops. You claim they don't exist, yet at least one is obvious to anyone that looks

[Sueezedtight]

@christo930 I did say that I was familiar with the chemistry. [CO2] as a GHG has a log response so past about 500 ppm, it isn't driving anything. (Nor did it at anytime in the past, except green plant growth, which is definitely not a bad thing.)

Current temps and the shenanigans with the records notwithstanding (not just Mannian hockey sticks but the surface record, sites and GISS's changing of the historical record) H2O is 20x more important than CO2 although CH4 is another potential issue.

[christo930]

@Sueezedtight Temp has steadily risen, what are you talking about. There are variations year to year, but the general trend is up. One of the feedbacks which is definitely without a doubt occurring is the melting of the permafrost and the release of methane into the atmosphere. CO2 has been the primary driver of ice ages, snowball earths and hot houses for millions of years.

[Sueezedtight]

@christo930 Familiar with that and the chemistry involved. The problem is not so much climate change (which is never-ending) as the putative effects of [CO2] and just what control we might exercise over that quantity.

The IPCC claims are all based on models that assume feedbacks that have not shown up...ever. Look at the model scenarios in FAR. [CO2] continues to rise but temps are not playing ball.

Clean up pollution, play nice and live happily for sure. Tax and trade CO2? No intelligence there

[christo930]

@Sueezedtight That theory was based on a linear projection of pollution for 50 years and was nowhere near a scientific consensus. Global warming is nothing new, scientists knew about co2 greenhouse effect since the late 1800's. There is a bell laboratories film on global warming from the 50's up on youtube, search for it.