Re: Philosophical Faith

Enactivism and Pragmatism are not types of relativism, since relativism still implies that a "true world" exists out there somewhere beyond any of our relative perspectives, however unreachable it may be by us. Enactivism/pragmatism posit no such pre-existing objective world that our subjective perspectives might fail to accurately represent. Rather, reality, in Whitehead's philosophy, is literally made of perspectives. The real can only be interpreted, since every act of knowledge transforms the knower and the known. There can be no outside perspective on things that might display them undisturbed. All knowledge is interested, situated, promiscuous knowledge. When the knower looks, the known looks back and blushes.


0ThouArtThat0's webcam video June 26, 2011 01:47 PM

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[TheNewRenaissance]

"Faith opens a door to a truth that was not available before." What then provides for falsification of said statement posited as 'truth'? What defines the dividing line between reality and the projection of the imagination?

[0ThouArtThat0]

@TheNewRenaissance I'm defining truth in a pragmatic and philosophical, not a scientific/theoretical sense, where falsification is relevant. Truth is no longer a matter of whether or not you can prove it wrong, but of how well the interpretation proposed as true produces an interesting, helpful, or creative contrast with matters of fact. Don't as "is a statement true?", but "what does it do?"

[TheNewRenaissance]

@0ThouArtThat0 So this definition of truth anything that is of utility to a human society is truth? Okay, then what about "truths" like the existence of witches and the necessity of hunting them down and burning them alive? Such and worse where "truths" in past societies, and sadly in many contemporary ones.

[0ThouArtThat0]

@TheNewRenaissance No, truth is that which works for ANY society, whether human, animal, cellular, atomic, or electronic. Every being, at every level, from humans to atoms, forms propositions in regard to its social environment. To the extent that these propositions are "useful," their social environments continue to exist. If a being's propositions are too outlandish or radically novel, they may destroy the society to which they belong. Truth is a life or death matter.

[0ThouArtThat0]

Whitehead's approach is not relativism, he is a cosmologist who thinks there is a matter of fact about the way the world is independent of human subjectivity. But there are no matters of fact independent of every form of subjectivity. Outside of experience (and every entity is experiential), there is nothing, only abstraction. Truth is, in a sense, a social construct. But the society in question is cosmic, not just human.

[astrotometry]

@0ThouArtThat0 "Truth is no longer a matter of whether or not you can prove it wrong, but of how well the interpretation proposed as true produces an interesting, helpful" The US government found the truth about WMD's in Iraq interesting and helpful... for a while.

[0ThouArtThat0]

@astrotometry and isn't the fact that they and many of us found their statements interesting and provacative precisely the point here? we live in a world where the truth is not what corresponds to reality, but what most effectively motivates a society to construct reality as such. we can't sit back and rail against liars, we have to step forward with our own, more worthwhile propositions.

[F1ghtclub2k11]

"Any prevailing interpretation is a function of power and not of truth"-Nietzsche...

Just to ask thouartthat how mush truth can one incorporate within one's organism without self destructing? and do you think you are of the same "type" of organism that will hold an idea through faith and live on because of that faith?...or are you the one that shall perish sooner because of that faith? and if you are that one who shall perish sooner or can feel the friction of other ideas what is to stop medioc

[socrates856]

Whose notion of enaction are you using here? It's not really what current academic discourse would see as enaction, because certainly it wouldn't claim that objects per se have to be changed by acting on them, rather it says that to know some objects we have to act and the action is required to knowing, going back to Heidegger's distinction of zur Handen (can be acted on, ready-at-hand) and vorhanden (existing).

[kingofaikido]

ditto the new renaissance, I would call it the 'great white rabbit' problem.. (after Robert Anton Wilson's Challenge). Is 'faith' necessary to enactment? Perhaps, the faith discussed is really just faith in enactmentism.. OK, so now, someone says the great white rabbit whispers the secrets of the universe in my ear, and I trust the Great White Rabbit because I have faith in him/her (this rabbit of all, the ur concept of all concepts of all rabbits is gender neutral let's say)...

[R2D2ONE22]

There is no fundamental knowledge or reality outside of experience. There is only the infinite regress of gaining knowledge in the form of a strange loop between subject and object. Therefore, no certainty as such. Faith is not a product of certainty or knowledge but one of trust/acceptance. ......Thats been on my mind at it clicks with the idea in this video.

[patternsinchaos]

A lot of false flagging going on here Matt. Wonder who's doing it. :-/

[RonnieGilli87]

there is no truth and there is no false both

are concepts born of a concept that separtes the

imagination from the physical and brings this false

duality as one more real than the other.but if a thought is something that occurs in consiousness and the physical is

something that occurs in consciousness than they are the same

[MageSutek]

In seeking the statement's truth, it does what it should do: lead to a conclusive, objective answer. Do feelings that arise from that truth fundamentally alter truth in and of itself? You said that truth is that which "works" for anyone/thing. I absolutely agree that truth is a matter of life and death, every day in all that we do and say. I do not know about you my friend, but I have come across some real useless and shitty truths, but they have not killed me, yet. Propositions are not truths.

[MageSutek]

..."faith" that their hearts and minds will be opened to the possibility of shifting gears, but it does not make my claims any more truthful in their eyes. Truth, whether the interpretation proposed as true produces an interesting, helpful, or creative contrast with matters of fact, or fails to do so, will ultimately lead to a paradox. You have not reinforced truth with that assertion; you have instilled doubt, which shall ultimately eclipse truth, especially in the minds of yearning humans.

[MageSutek]

...quantity or quality. They shall all say it is bullshit and they will excuse themselves. A few of the older and more seasoned brothers would say that they have failed to see the truth that is engendered from faith in Christ. If I propose that the truth simply escaped them because they have no faith, I have already fundamentally altered truth qualitatively, and it might be my truth, but it was my faith that gave rise to it. I could be terribly wrong and the atheists might be right. I have...

[MageSutek]

It is no longer an objective truth but more of...well, faith, right? As I put forth in the last video's comment section, faith and truth are about as friendly to one another as oil and water, or Jamesian pragmatism (truth installed or not installed) and faith. When I went to Vespers this evening, I had and remain to have faith that God was and will be with me and the rest of the community. Now if invited some YouTube atheists to Vespers, they will see neither faith nor truth; neither...