Norman Davies on Polish history

Very objective opinion

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News & Politics

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[0lafsky]

...And such was the lesson from history.

Anyhow we can a still (and IMHO should) unite Poland and Lithuania and Ukraine in new democratic and (i am not sure whether federated or not) state of equal partnership and representation under straightforward future orientated constitution, bury the hatchet and grow strong and stable together. Belorussians would join us on their own accord at some point.

Together we were strong, separated we were eaten alive by vultures on all sides as we are today.

[fanaber70]

@0lafsky

Precisely! I'll remind you both Germany and Russia were always hell-bent on breaking this strong invincible Polish-Lithuanian Union for obvious reasons.

[0lafsky]

From Below:

.... en par Lithuania thus creating Res-Publicum of 3 nations. The King advised by Crown and Lithuanian Sejm (the parliament) said no thank you. Which started civil war that resulted in 400 years of bullshit for all concerned and rest of the Europe. Had we've made right decision according to the principles by which republic was founded in the first place, there wouldn't be Prussian/German, Russian or Austrian Empires, because we would have been strong enough to keep them at bay.

[fanaber70]

@0lafsky

French, German and US freemasons were against this Polish-Lithuanian power.

[0lafsky]

Continuing from below:

Cossacks denoted either banished peoples, or escapees who looked for better deal in life somewhere far away in the lands of eastern Ukraine beyond reach of Crown or Lithuanian lands and legal jurisdiction. However, name stuck to their descendants who evolved distinguished culture and traditions derived from their many different cultural heritages and neighboring Zaporozhyans. At some point they've asked for recognition and equal status, privilages as a region and peoples.

[fanaber70]

@0lafsky

Great stuff. Thanks a lot!

[MrThorn88]

@rjpancerniCAUSA Yes that's strange.However I think that Polish historians have the best knowledge about facts because they have documents and data.Nevermind. Mr.Norman Davis is very respected in Poland because he understands our history very well and he is like our "ambassador" abroad.I don't really care if it was 2 or 10 percent.Commonwealth was great repiblic,unfortunately I think it was too modern for its times and our neigbours saw it as a threat.Are you Polish?Chwała świętej Polsce:)

[alanheath]

Most states in the early modern period were multi ethnic. Nationalism had yet to rear its ugly head. There are however exceptions such as Spain.

The idea of an elected king I think is to ensure a weak centre to give more power to the nobles. In principle it sounds a good idea, particularly if seen from a modern perspective but perhaps at the time it did not work so well.

[Lachausis]

@0lafsky Lithuanians are Balts. They belong to Baltic mentality. No artificial unions are needed, just good relations as neighbours.

[Lachausis]

I'm sorry, Poles, but I cannot say good things about Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth yoke in Latvia, although it was still BETTER than russian empire. However, after the collapse of Livonian Confederation it was Poles, who basically introduced serfdom all over the land, and Balts were enslaved. Even Livonian rulers didn't actually advocate serfdom. Eventually the serfdom reached its peek during yoke of Russian Empire, when German barons were given too much power, which they misused.

[0lafsky]

Continued from bellow:

re: Demographics:

About 30% were ethnic Polanie, Many non-lechitic tribes formed what was known as Crown and were Polish. 'Polish' was a supra-ethnical idea associated with 'republican' ideology of the day, many Ruthenian (mix of many tribes speaking primarily ruthenian language) and Lithuenians (mix of tribes with clearer Lithuenian 'identity' ) families become 'Polish' by participating in the life of Res-Publicum. Cossacks were outlaws from all walks of life and tribes.

[0lafsky]

Actually, anyone that was an owner of the land had a stake in the country, thus res publicum i.e.: republic. Voting power came with the possession of the land, long before the commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania was officially constituted. At some point landless nobility inherited their privileged status. Thus generally up to 20% population enjoyed right to vote on different levels of administration. People could be nobilitated when acquiring land. Not all however qualified to posses land.