John Piper - Is it sin to dislike the doctrine of election?

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[BritneyAddicted4EVA]

I remember that back when I got saved I didn't even want to hear about predestination. Months later I actually realized that I believed in it.

[SeedsOfHatred]

@Drooblemeister If we assume that Satan is in fact real, and if he does decieve us, then in that sense yes, he DOES "force" us to do this or that by way of deception. I realize I earlier claimed that force and trickery were different, but after some thought, I realized they're not. You can "force" someone to do something by convincing them through deception to do it.

So again, how is this our fault?

[Drooblemeister]

I never said he wouldn't, I'm said he wouldn't send someone to hell on the sole basis they were deceived, but I also said that everyone has a free-will and satan does not 'make us' do anything against our will. The desire to escape hell was not the reason why I decided to become a Christian, it had to do w/ the fact that God grabbed a hold of my heart, showed me His love expressed in the person of Jesus. If God is real, then we do have free-will, and we do have the capacity to find Him..

[SeedsOfHatred]

@Drooblemeister (Part 2) this my fault? How is this ANYONE'S fault?

It's not. So, by your logic, God should not send me (or any like-minded atheist) to Hell for being non-believers - which I'm sure you know goes against your entire theology.

Welcome to the world of theological contradictions.

[SeedsOfHatred]

@Drooblemeister "but he cannot force us to do anything against our will"

This would be relevant if, in my analogy, the wife had been raped. But "force" is entirely different from "tricking" someone into doing something.

To illustrate once more, I'm an atheist because I feel it is the most logical position to take, based on the evidence (or lack thereof). This is not something I'm "chooosing" to do; it's simply the logical default. If this turns out to be a trick of the Devil, how is

[Drooblemeister]

You wanna know something? I believe, and many other Christians like myself also believe that God will not allow anyone to go to hell on the basis they were deceived, some people in this life do decide to follow satan on their own free-will, satan can decieve us, but he cannot force us to do anything against our will, but we can submit our will to him if we choose. I also don't believe God 'predestined' anyone to go to hell, the Bible never says this anywhere.. Peace,

[SeedsOfHatred]

@Drooblemeister (Part 2) not believing in God, or into doing what is "bad", and God punishes us for it. What's more, Christians standing on the side-lines tell us non-believers that we "chose it for ourselves".

If God is real, and if there is a Devil decieving us, then we are no more at fault for our mindset than your wife would be for being tricked. For this reason, if God punishes us in Hell, then he is an irrational tyrant who chooses a hissy-fit over logic.

It's really quite that simple.

[SeedsOfHatred]

@Drooblemeister It is a very easy subject.

To illustrate, let's say your neighbor sneaks into your home in the dark and pretends to be you so that he can have sex with your wife. Your wife has no idea it's your neighbor - she thinks it's you - so she has sex with him. The next day, you find out about this and beat/divorce (whatever you're into) your wife - who was tricked - for cheating on you.

That is what God allegedly does to those who are decieved by Satan. Satan tricks us into

[Isaiah1v18]

Someone needs to ask Pipe r if its a sin to disagree with him over Scripture INTERPRETATION!

[apostolic38]

This is just a scary man... God save him.