RE:The Road to Serfdom

Socialism: how it is used and defined in the Road to Serfdom & other works of Friedrich Hayek. Too many people both left and right misunderstand Hayek's arguement.

This is a response to points made in this video -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxQwsgpZ9wM

See pages 33, 34, 35 for the relevent parts of Individualism & Collectivism

Or here for the same in audio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gle2qTOzrpc

For those interested

The chapter of The Constituiton of Liberty on The Decline of Socialism and the Rise of the Welfare State is here

http://lamar.colostate.edu/~grjan/hayekwelfarestate.html

The preface to the 1976 edition of the RTS is here

http://www.word-gems.com/wealth.hayek.preface.1976.html

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[saxonkirwan]

I don't agree with this. Socialism always has and always will mean worker ownership over the means of production. It was people like Hayek and Friedman who created the central planning straw-man with help from centrally planned economies claiming to be socialist due to the moral justice that was associated with the term in the late 19th century.

[Malthus0]

@saxonkirwan Not really the point of the video but you are wrong anyway - '' The term "individualism" & the term "socialism"are originally the creation of the Saint-Simonians, the founders of modern socialism.They first coined the term "individualism" to describe the competitive society to which they were opposed &

then invented the word "socialism" to describe the centrally planned society in which all activity was directed on the same principle that applied within a single factory'' Hayek 1941

[saxonkirwan]

@Malthus0

You just used the same straw-man....

Search on youtube: Chomsky on socialism.

[Malthus0]

@saxonkirwan ''It was people like Hayek and Friedman who created the central planning straw-man'' Wrong, I just showed you (in the quote from page 3 of Individualism & Economic order) that the central planning element of socialist thought goes all the way back to the beggining of its history. Your claim was wong & the Chomsky video does not help your case.

[TheVoiceOfReason93]

One problem: Socialism and National Socialism are absolute opposites! The 'Socialism' in National Socialism is a ruse to lure workers to support what essentially is a racist, nationalist and initially pro-business political movement. As far as it is concerned, it HATES Socialism and thinks that it is a Jewish idea (if not, you are conspiracy nut) and wants it destroyed. Out real enemy is NAZISM, not SOCIALISM!

[Malthus0]

@TheVoiceOfReason93

You completely miss the point. This is an imaginary problem you are projecting onto the subject. If you want to avoid confusion take the word socialism out your head and replace it with 'collectivism'. This collectivism is a trait common to both to socialists, Nazis and all totalitarians. Collectivism is a means that can be used by any ideology, socialist or not. It matters not the purpose it is used for, the consequence is the same.

[daobagua]

@tstruss912 Hmmm. Neither. I would prefer a wealfare state to a socialist one (one with government controlling industry). But I would prefer a free market to both.

Cheers.

[tstruss912]

@daobagua Alright...hmm....how about, "method for determining which economic system will realistically yield an improvement over the current one" (USA or world...it's your pick).

[daobagua]

@tstruss912 I would love to debate, point by point. Please give me a topic

Cheers.

[mkodaddy]

google ron paul...

[HoGraz]

@Malthus0 Why do you call yourself Malthus if you're a free market libertarian?

Ok on another note: this country was not formed soley on individualism but pluralism.This is a key way for libertarians to try to divide and conquer the working class.You make them against community and what not over things like racism and obsession with accumulating wealth as the only means toward happiness. They also use this in a way to combat people fighting for protection of communities against corporate rights

[riverlioness]

Why do people obtain economics degrees from Junior college, and then attempt to challenge Austrian economics? The Census bureau isn't hiring critics of Libertarian economics. Maybe if he whips up some statistics, he'll secure a position.

Analysis is not his forte.

Does Radiohogan understand central planning history? How do these people separate National Socialism and Communism from Karl Marx's theories?

[saxonkirwan]

@Malthus0

search on youtube: Chomsky on socialism. You probably won't believe it though because capitalists like to think they know more about socialism than socialists.