Part 19 of 25 Justification By Faith - Sungenis vs White

Robert Sungenis and James White debate the issue of Sola Fide. Are we justified by faith alone, or is it not by faith alone? Are works necessary for Salvation? What role does grace play?

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• Justification
• Faith
• Alone
• Sungenis
• White
• Works

[pbcinla]

Roman Catholics tell me I cannot have assurance of salvation.

St. John tells me "This is the PROMISE which He Himself made to us: Eternal Life. These things I have written you concerning those WHO ARE TRYING TO DECEIVE YOU." - 1 John 2:25,26

St. John tells me "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE." 1 John 5:13

[pacislander4life]

do you know if the Greek implies a absolute knowledge?

[wuebbsco]

This is my main issue with the Catholics, or any other "works" based faith. being human, we all continue sinning...daily. I dont see how any Catholic can ever "KNOW" they are saved. As a Reformed Christian I know I am secure becuase I desire to do good works "becuase" I was saved, not in order to be saved. Jesus says that he will not cast out those whom the Father has given Him. John 6:36-39. Those are the ones who are "called" by the Father.

[pacislander4life]

When they "listen" and "learn" they will come to Jesus. Yet Jesus is clear in John 5:40 that it is man who decides not to come to God: "These are Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (How Can I Get to Heaven, p. 256)

[glizag]

Dr White is good -- puts his Robbie in a pickle.

[fineca]

in this clip Sungenis does the best job in pointing out the weaknesses of the Reformed position on Hebrews 11:8 and assurance of salvation.

[pbcinla]

To add to that, how do the NT writers write to the "elect"? How do they know who in their group is elect. The idea is you assume you are elect based on the promises of God in Christ and to build up your assurance in perserverance. No one should think of themselves as reprobate. That is to despair.

[pbcinla]

How is that a problem?

You should also read First John because it's thesis is, How you can know that you are saved. Read it through once and tell me what you think.

Underline every phrase, "That you may know" and see what you come up with.

[soldieroforthodoxy]

wuebbsco's objection is very common, unfortunately it is problematic in 2 ways. 1) The exegesis is faulty as it relies on proof texting.2)A logical fallacy known as "appeal to the consequences of a belief" is used as a kind of scatter-shot argument. The implications of a premise say nothing about the truth value of said premise.

[pacislander4life]

Again, I accidentally delated your other message... If you can please repost what you said last... something about how works are what make you sure you are saved... grace is what enables us to make a free choice... Apart from God's grace, we would only sin...

[wuebbsco]

You say that by the grace of God we are enabled to make a free choice. Is it grace that he allows us to make a choice that we do not have the ability to make? The bible says natural man cannot please God. The "grace" part is that he saves us based on "nothing" that we could do on our own part! That is what's so awesome about God's grace. Why do you think Jesus is called the "author and finisher" of our faith. When He died, it was FInished.  His "called" people were saved!