Texas Freethought Convention Recap - The Atheist Experience #731 (full episode)
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Uploaded by TheAtheistExperience on Oct 28, 2011
(FULL EPISODE) The Atheist Experience #731 of October 16, 2011, with Matt Dillahunty and Jen Peeples. Matt and Jen recap last week's Texas Freethought Convention.
Read more about the Texas Freethought Convention and the Atheist Alliance America Convention on the Atheist Experience blog:
► http://freethoughtblogs.com/axp/2011/10/12/texas-freethought-convention-athei...
The original video of this episode (topic: "Texas Freethought Convention Recap") is archived on Blip.tv:
► http://blip.tv/the-atheist-experience-tv-show/atheist-experience-731-texas-fr...
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All Comments (257)
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@MrKommienezuspadt Then how can a good being be NC doesn't that have the same problems? By what measure is God good? God loves us and that is a reason we say he is good, does that not make God dependent on us? Our evaluation of a God's character doesn't have any effect on their contingency.
making a nc being is easy, define some quality x, ascribe it to a being, then say you have max x if you have it in every possible world, then ask is there a possible world where x exists.
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I don't think an evil being can be non-contingent, if there is evil there needs to be some way of determining or measuring that something is evil, an evil god would be dependent on the existence of that measure. For example, if we say god is evil because it caused a genocide on earth then god's evilness is dependent on the existence of things outside itself AND the "reasons" as to why that was evil. It's harder than you think to label something non-contingent.
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@MrKommienezuspadt Sorry I misspoke, meant non contingent. I see no reason why there could not be an evil noncontingent god, or at least that it is possible that an evil non contingent deity. It seems that it does not matter if you use NC label arbitrarily, as long as the being is possible. Unless an argument can be made for a world where such a being cannot exist. Also what version of the argument are you using? Telling me it is not Planitga's nor Descartes doesn't say much.
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I don't think maximal excellence and perfection are the same thing because flaws can be subjectively defined, maximal excellence deals with the completeness of specific qualities (e.g. knowledge). BTW I'm not using Alvin Plantingas argument, except maybe some aspects. Yes, I don't understand what you're trying to say. You've said that your god is evil (or good) and contingent, even if I grant all that how exactly is it important to my argument?
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@MrKommienezuspadt Maximal excellence is pretty indistinguishable from perfection, which is what Plantiga bases his argument on.
I don't think you understood my response if we remove mankind the objection you expressed then we have an evil contingent being. Although a god who wishes to make humans suffer is no less contingent then a god who wishes to save, redeem or loves mankind.
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The only ontological argument that uses the idea of "perfection" (which isn't a very clear idea anyway, I mean what exactly constitutes as a flaw? By what standard? etc.) is Decartes', and his argument was not the one I was using. I'm not sure I really follow what you were trying to say here though, of course if your "god" is contingent on something else then it's not a god, but what does that have to do with my argument?
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Why...why would anyone base a god on an argument alone? That seems to be pretty self defeating. At the end of the day, all you still had was an argument.
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@MrKommienezuspadt Actually perfection has everything to do with the argument, that is why they say god is contingent. (As to why non contingency is a flaw I do not know) We could adjust this statement and remove and wishes to destroy mankind, and then we would have a contingent being. My point is that if contingency works as an argument then it doesn't really matter how arbitrarily you apply the label of contingent.
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This has little to do with perfection. In a sense you are just slapping the label non-contingency onto something, but I've yet to hear a logical problem with the premises. A perfect being called god who is evil and wishes to destroy mankind is dependent on the existence of mankind, and probably a ton of other things. In short your idea of god is not non-contingent.
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No, I said "If something is non-contingent then it's either necessary or impossible". This is because for something that is non-contingent the only valid options for it are necessary or impossible.
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I never said that if god is probable then it's necessary. Any "God" that is non-contradictory and non-contingent is necessary, it doesn't matter "which" one it is. If God A is mutually exclusive with God B and vice versa then neither god is non-contingent because both God's existences are dependent (contingent) on the existence of the other God.
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One of the main criticism of the idea that everything is "contingent" is that it leads to an infinite regression of causes and it's not clear whether that's possible or an adequate explanation for why contingent beings exist. Not to mention, if all causes in a set are contingent then the whole set is contingent, so the cause of the set (since it's contingent) is non-contingent, otherwise it would be included in the set and therefore not a cause of the set.
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That would be a good point against something like the cosmological argument, in which a theist would argue that the existence of god is necessary to explain "the first cause", because then you could explain it with the universe. But for an ontological argument it's irrelevant. Even if God wasn't necessary to create the universe and therefore "redundant" it would still exist by virtue of being non-contradictory and it's non-contingency.
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".. when the first half is the basis of Judaism!"
Sick burn, bro.
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"non-contingent constants" In other words: I'm making assumptions and limiting possibilities so that I can define god and make it all fit and voila god exists. Of course it does because you set it up to not fail. You defined it as such. You defined god into existence.
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@xipheonj because thats all religion is and why apolegetics exist, it serves to bolster an already existing belief, not actually find the truth. Just ask any crhstian and you'll see them make up logic to justify their belief. The only honest answer you will get is "I don't know, I was brought up with it/you have to have faith", without evidence there is no justification
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@jojomesozoic Can I get an AMEN up in here?
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wow Emilio like many others I've seen on this show go so far into their own minds to generate circular irrational wordplay to describe excessively complicated mental gymnastics to explain how a god could exist within today's science.
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Why are fundamentalist Christians so unable to articulate anything resembling an argument? They believe in spite of any argument to the contrary then expect people to be convinced by gibberish.
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every baby born into a religious family is brought up with the "love" of "god" when really they are being transformed to little "End-of-da-world" hate mongers.
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Why is it that if a man walked up to you randomly and said a voice in my head told me to sacrifice my only son. A person in their right mind would call the child service and the cops to get that child to safety and that man some mental help. For hundreds of years people have been Burned at the stake, drowned, stabbed, bombed, and stoned because of religion. Religion is a propaganda driven scheme that has gotten way out of hand.
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Maybe that Emilio works in a McDonalds
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is that the spaghetti monster between them?
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What is with these callers? This first one LIES that he is an atheist and magically found an argument that might led him to religion.....this magic god proof he has, is one of the most common ones ever. What BS
Sperminator10000 4 months ago 10
Matt just said Grok. I fucking love that.
For those who don't know the meaning of the word, it means to understand a thing completely. Its origins are from a Robert Heinlein book called Stranger In a Strange Land. READ IT. One of the best sci-fi books of all time and the social commentary is delicious.
jojomesozoic 2 months ago 3