Michael O'Hanlon and Robert Kagan talking about taking Georgia into NATO and whether it would be poking Russia in the eye to allow them in. After talking about their views on the Presidential candi...
Michael O'Hanlon and Robert Kagan talking about taking Georgia into NATO and whether it would be poking Russia in the eye to allow them in. After talking about their views on the Presidential candidates and their policies on Iraq and Georgia the conversation moves here:
Foreman: You brought up Iraq and I think that's an important point here because Vladimir Putin and many pundits have said both the candidates, George Bush, everybody had their legs cut out him, from them a little bit because of the Iraq war, because the United States went into a country without waiting for this gigantic UN consensus to say let's go. So how, Russia itself says "How do you criticize us? We're protecting our national interest too". Is this a real problem Bob?
Kagan: Not really. I wouldn't say that many pundits have said that. I uh, if you look at what's happening in Europe right now which is where this whole action is taking place uh, European leaders are condemning uh Moscow's action uh from the British government to the Swedish government. Uh there's, there's pretty good, I mean there's some difference between about exactly how to move but there's very strong trans-Atlantic unity condemning this action. No one is waving ah Iraq or anything else. So people can see the difference between what Russia has done uh and what the United States and many European allies did in Iraq.
Foreman: Do you think people can see the difference? Because certainly some people who are enemies of George Bush who don't like this White House say there's not much of a difference. They're bothered by it. They're bothered by what Russia did but they're equally bothered by what we've done in Iraq.
O'Hanlon: I would say with both Iraq and the case of Kosovo which is something Russia invokes a lot as an analogy here, we dealt with brutal dictators. There was a question about whether we had gone through all the proper diplomatic preparation. I do not think George W. Bush did a great job at preparing the ground work for the Iraq war. But come on, we overthrew a guy who killed a million people.
Foreman: As opposed to essentially a territory dispute of some sort.
O'Hanlon: Exactly a far lower level of violence regardless of who fired what shot first.
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Now the media are revising the facts to manage public perception, just as they did with the fictional WMD in Iraq. Nearly every article and TV news segment in the neoconservative corporate media begins with accusations of Russian aggression, concealing the fact that the Georgian Army bombarded and invaded the capital of South Ossetia one full day before the first Russian even tank crossed the border. By the time the Russians arrived, the city was already in a shambles and thousands were dead.
Did you see the Fareed Zakaria's GPS Sunday Program. CNN's Gen. Grange concludes that he thinks that the Russians may have prompted the Georgian attack by using South Ossetia proxies to attack Georgia first. Even foreign policy experts, Zbignew Brezinski and Richard Holbrooke, who have been friendly to Obama in the past, have portrayed Russia as the "bad guys." There views are not exactly what I have been reading in the newspapers. There seems to be a lack of continuity in the media right now.
Russia deployed its tanks and troops to South Ossetia to save the lives of civilians and to reestablish the peace. It has no interest in annexing the former-Soviet country or in expanding its present borders. Brzezinski and Holbrooke are veteran cold warriors. They are not bungling neocons like Feith and Rumsfeld. They know what they are doing and they are good at it. They have aligned themselves with the Obama camp and are preparing for the next big outbreak of global trouble-making.
Obama was totally appropriate in his response. He was both evenhanded and fair with respect to the Russia/Georgia conflict. Obama's foreign policy approach is exactly what the international community has been clamoring from the U.S.: a fair and honest broker; not the Russians are the bad guys; or the Palestinians are the bad guys; or, I can only see things in black or white, which is the McCain, GOP, and certainly the Bush administration's approach.
There is no condemnation whatsoever by the U.S. that Georgia started this conflict. Saakashvili was even warned by the U.S. to not engage the breakaway regions militarily prior to the conflict. And there is no reason that we should be pushing to put a missle defense shield in Poland to protect it from "rogue states," such as Iran. Iran is not going to attack Poland. This is very provocative behavior that the U.S. is engaging. The months cannot come sooner to get the Bush adm. out of office.
Let me be clear. Russia's response was overkill, and it should pull back its forces from Georgia. But we have no moral ground to be so forceful in our condemnation of the Russians. O'Hanlon and Kagan are big time supporters of the Iraq War. And the notion that it is okay to invade another sovereign nation, Iraq, based on lies and deception because Saddam was a bad guy is preposterous. There were other dictators in the world committing acts of genocide where the U.S. did nothing about it.
Fuck these two lying neocon assholes. Saddam killed a million people? I guess if you include the Iran/Iraq war he did. Then again, given that we sided with Iraq/Saddam during that war you could say the US helped to kill most of those million. Neocons routinely peddle lies and half truths- and our bullshit media never calls them on it.
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Brzezinski and Holbrooke are veteran cold warriors. They are not bungling neocons like Feith and Rumsfeld. They know what they are doing and they are good at it. They have aligned themselves with the Obama camp and are preparing for the next big outbreak of global trouble-making.