I knew Duran had got himself into better shape lately but I didn't know the Panamanian government had actually asked him to. I read an article about him a few months ago where, bizarrely, he was playing pool in a club in northern England and he said he'd dropped about 80lbs. Who knows how good he could have been if he'd just had a little more discipline.

Not to mention the psychological impact of taking such a beating when you and everyone else believed that you were invincible. A great example of how boxing is about mental toughness as well as physical. Perhaps an example too to all those who think being undefeated is the be all and end all for a boxer these days. I'd hazard Joe learned more from that loss than he did from many of his wins. Compare that to Tyson who took a similar beating at the hands of Douglas but never really recovered from it

As for Duran, Flavius, have you seen him lately? He looks like he could lace up the gloves again; he has lost an incredible amount of weight.  I understand that the Panamanian government, after the untimely death of Alexis Arguello, went to Duran and begged him to drop weight, that he was becoming a health risk. I talked to a co-worker recently who grew up in Panama and told me that basically what Duran did was stop drinking. If he had done that three decades ago, his decline would have been much slower.

To illustrate how bad Louis was getting licked, by his own later admission Louis had no memory of the fight after round five. That he re-grouped from this, won and reigned as heavyweight champion for 25 title defenses and a dozen years, and destroyed the only man to defeat him until 1950 is nothing short of incredible.

Points well-taken about Langford and Greb in addition to Robinson; their achievements are more than phenomenal. One point I would like to add concerning the myth about Louis's glass jaw concerns, interestingly enough, the first Schmeling fight. Think about this; according to one observer Louis was hit by 72 right hands over the course of that fight, and down and then out by two of them. By all rights, Schmeling should have ended Louis' career that night, because I've seen the films of that fight, and a beating like that is usually a career-ender.

My pick for the best ever, p4p, would be a 3 way split between Sam Langford, Harry Greb and Sugar Ray Robinson. I do take your point about the availability of film; however for me their accomplishments speak for themselves. What these guys were doing is just astonishing and IMO in terms of accomplishments no one else really matches them.

However like you Duran is the best of my lifetime. It never ceases to amaze me how often such an awesome and sophisticated fighter gets pigeon holed as a one dimensional slugger or worse, a quitter. I recall some time ago you mentioned Manny Steward talking about him in just that fashion. At his peak he'd give Robby a hell of a tussle.

Agreed entirely about Louis. What also impresses me about Joe is he defeated a wide array of styles (cuties, sluggers, swarmers, giants) almost always by KO, and the few close or controversial fights he was in were all resolved with timely rematches and the judges were never needed second time around. BTW. I'm also a big fan of the Baer fight; not only do I see it as you described, but it gives the lie the notion that Joe had a glass chin. He walked through Max's Sunday punch with no problems.

I must make a correction, Flavius. Louis defeated Baer in 1935, not 1985.  Both were long gone by then.

And may I add that Carlos Monzon belongs in that class as well. He may not have had the flash, but he was as fundamentally sound as any great boxer in the last 50 years. Also, I dearly wish Salvador Sanchez had lived longer. At the time of his death, he set the standard for excellence and conditioning in boxing.

I can state, however, whom I feel was the best P4P fighter of my lifetime - Roberto Duran, with Hagler a close second. What Duran achieved was incredible; he by far was the greatest defensive fighter ever to fight in a slugging style, and to me what he achieved 1967 through the first Leonard fight in Montreal compares favorably to Robinson's incredble streak from 1940 through 1951. It's a shame that much of the American public only remembers Duran for his struggles at higher weights in the 1980s and '90s, but his former trainer, Ray Arcel, put it in perspective: "From 1970 to 1980, Duran was the best fighter. He was overshadowed by Ali's mouth, but he was the best fighter."