It's not tree's fault that it's out of season, it's the idiot who expects to have fruits all the time fault! So if Jesus had chosen this parable to make a point - it was a stupid choice! It only shows ignorance.
I don't need any mental gymnastics. I just read whats there...analyze the evidence..and if it adds up or makes sense..then fine. But the bible (like many religious texts) has an unbelieveable amount of contradictions and problems with it. And to believe that every single one is answerable through incredible amounts of shoehorning and mental gymnastics really does require a serious leap of faith. lol.
Israel rejected their awaited messiah, because they were sacrificing their firstborn lambs without blemishes, out of Season. It was not the Time for Israel to be providing the feast of God.
The beginning month & beginning year is the time of Rash ha shah nah. It is in the season of Fall. Do you know what the wicked king Jeroboam did with God's ordained beginning month? Don't tell me you did not read it, when you read the bible completely through!
Did you not learn from your once complete bible reading that the Fig tree was used only as an instrument to represent the people Israel? What was done to the Fig tree, so too shall be done to Israel who is out of Season according to God's Commandments.
A parable huh? In other words you're saying that Jesus just pretended to be angry with the tree? And then he Killed it without stating his real reason in the hopes that at a later date someone would invent a parablistic reason for it and put it in revelation etc. Yeah right. LOL. You nuts really do enjoy these nonsensical mental gymnasics don't you?
The United States was founded on the principle of Manifest Destiny. Manifest Destiny is the historical belief that the United States is destined, even divinely ordained, to expand across the North American continent, from the Atlantic seaboard to the Pacific Ocean. ...Was this done? Yes! There are lots of examples of God will if one cares to examine the evidence. When you think of Christianity what county(s) do you think of and why?
I assume you mean country(s)? Well, USA since it has such a strong christian base (even tough it's reducing according to the latest ARIS report). France, because of the revolution and what that did for christianity in europe. And Sweden, since it's one of the most secular countries in the world and allso my home.
Country, yes, sorry about that. Yes USA because for the most part it is the last stand of mass Christianity. The AIRS report is correct. I would also say most who claim to be Christians are far from it as well. Take the election of Obama for an example. I know no true Christians that voted for him, so we are an ever smaller group. What does this mean? For Christians it means the Bible is correct as predicted. It means we are reaching the end.
This is interesting to me. Why is it that no true christian would vote for Obama? Forgive me if there is an obvious answer, I am not very educated regarding american politics.
First, he claimed to be Christian and he is not. His answers were inconsistent with the Bible. Second, his policies are against Biblical teaching on some core issues ie. abortion, sex education, and drug policies. There are other issues but those are the main reasons.
Ok, I see. On a different note, I think you missed replying to this statement: Not accepting versus rejecting are to very similar terms. Rejecting however implies a more active stand. But is it correct that I must know that jesus/god exists and still reject him to commit the unpardonable sin?
You cannot know God exists unless you allow the Holy Spirit to enter you. By actively not allowing the Holly Spirit to enter you you are in effect rejecting Christ. Rejecting is a more active individual stand.
I not sure about the 'active' part. You have a built in desire to understand the world and why you are here. God put that in you. Now as you grow older you have the opportunity to make a choice in what you believe. If you wish to understand and you feel like something is directing you or moving you that is the Holy Spirit. When you discard that feeling and allow your mind to control the decision that is man's way. The heart and mind war against one another only one can win out.
I guess it would be to not believe in/accept god since the only way you can be be pardoned is by accepting jesus/god. It's kind of a circular argument or a catch 22, but that's my guess.
Close and in way correct but not really. Rejection of the Holy Spirit is the only unpardonable sin. You see you cannot understand the Bible as a man, you can read and still not understand it. It is only when you allow the Spirit to enter you do the words change meaning and the truth is revealed. Then you can accept Christ because the spirit has revealed what was meaningless before.I can hardly describe it, for me the world has been revealed and now I understand it's pain and suffering.
Not accepting versus rejecting are to very similar terms. Rejecting however implies a more active stand. But is it correct that I must know that jesus/god exists and still reject him to commit the unpardonable sin?
You are missing the point: If everything is predetermined (we still agree on this, right?) George Washington's free will and choices had NOTHING to do with the outcome. It's simple, he was predetermined to NOT be hit by those bullets, so he wasn't. Had he been hit, then America might have looked different, but then that would have allso been predetermined. Please try to think of an example where your free will matter/make a difference if everything is predetermined, it's very hard.
Hard yes, because the line of freewill and predetermination are interwoven. God has a plan for everyone good and bad. Take Hitler - Was God's will completed through this action? Strange concept, right? The Jews ended up with their own land, most likely because of WWII. This had to occur, the Bible predicted a return to the land and now it is complete. Because of this we are closer to the end.
Yes, you could say that they are interwoven. However my point is this: and I think you understand this but you are not willing to say it for some reason, so I am going to. If everything is predetermined there is no real free will, this is a given. This means that either god is not all-knowing and free will exists. Or god is all-knowing and free will does not exist. What do you think about this?
Your stance on this is closer to Calvinism regarding freewill. God has a predestined path for all of us, if you will follow the path. You still have the opportunity to screw it up and most of us do. Washington was following God path. He could of resigned from the Army and that would have been against his determined path. Washington made the right choice.
I disagree, and your are allso changing your description of free will. You stated earlier that "The past, the present and the future are allready determined in the small and large sense. In order to fulfill prophesy God would have to know every decision that we will make beforehand. Otherwise the outcome could be changed." What you describe is fatalism in it's purest form. And according to fatalism there is no free will or free will is meaningless (i.e. the illusion of free will). Thoughts?
Your freewill will go against God's ideal plan for you but you will still accomplish God's plan but in a different way. He already knows your life plan and he has allowed you to choose it. By choosing your plan you have exercised freewill, no one has made a decision for you. But God already knows your decision ahead of time and he know what outcome it will bring. Your plan is already in God's master plan so you are still fulfilling God's will one way or another.
If god knows your whole life, there can be no ideal plan and different plan. There can be only one plan. That plan is how you will live your life, and it will follow exactly what god allready knows. No matter how intricately you put it you can't dispute that if god knows how your life begins, everything you will do during your lifetime, and how your life will end: Your choices doesn't matter. You still haven't given an exapmple where free will makes a difference if everything is predetermined.
"....ideal plan and different plan." That is correct. You are right. Your choice does matter to you because you have to make them and will. God will already know your choice. Freewill only matters to you and will only effect you not God. God already knows your choice. Of course your choice may effect others but God has already taken that into account. So even the people without belief still fulfill the word of God and prophecy. The world WILL turn from God especially in the last days.
Yes, our choices matter to us, but only because it gives us the illusion that these choices matter to the big picture. Since we know now that the big picture is allready predetermined, this illusion is destroyed and we realise that our choices are meaningless even to ourselves. Example: You choose to save money to travel abroad, but why? If god wants you to go abroad you will get there somehow, and if he doesn't want you to go, then there is no point saving, since something will stop you.
Yes that is correct.I will clarify this by saying God knows the heart so just saying you accept Jesus and meaning it are two different things.Did Jesus not allow himself to be murdered?As long as people believed in Him they are forgiven. Wow, what a powerful message of forgiveness. Jesus was either a mad man, or He really was the Son of God. What did Jesus have to gain? "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Offcourse, one would really have to mean it. My point is that a person that has lived an atrocius life and minutes ago has murdered lots of people can end up in heaven, and one of his victims who has lived a extremly good life, helping people in all sorts of ways, but have not had the chance to learn about and accept god, will end up in hell. Is this really fair?
God will deal with the individuals who did not 'learn' about Jesus. I can be sure his judgement will be correct and fair. As far as the murderer God will forgive him if he accepts Jesus. Why, because he believes with faith. The rest do not believe and have no faith so there is no atonement for their sin. They must pay for their own sin. Satan knows that God must stay true to His law.
When you say that his judgement will be correct and fair do you mean that this individual will go to hell for not knowing about jesus and that this is fair? Or that there is a chance that this person will go to heaven based on how god judges him?
I am saying that God will be fair and understands the heart - You know this is an interesting concept and I believe that everyone will be given an opportunity to believe.
Do you mean that everyone will be given an opportunity to believe in their life on earth? Or after they have died (but before they are "sentenced")? Or some other time? Allso, is this an idea that is backed up by the bible?
In my opinion yes everyone will be given an opportunity but I could be wrong. There are lots of variables as you pointed out such as children, handicapped, or even pockets of isolated people. I know God is loving God and a fair God so I will not split hairs on this subject. As far as the Bible is concerned that is my interpretation but I could be wrong.
Well, I don't know what he had to gain. But I must say that I do not see how it is the ultimate sacrifice that it is often mentioned to be. He did come back to life after all.
His return to life was not as mortal man. Also his showing after death fulfilled prophecy that death would not contain the believer. That death as we know know it is only a passageway to eternal life - I rather like that.
Well, isn't it even less of an ultimate sacrifice since he came back as something greater? I would think that the ultimate sacrifice would be to sacrifice everything, and gain nothing. Not sacrifice everything and gain eternal life in heaven. I understand that it served other purposes aswell, but I feel that it is wrong to call it the ultimate sacrifice.
Well, it becomes a bit unclear since god is jesus, and jesus therefore allready has access to heaven and thereby nothing to gain, however: If this is the case, then dying on the cross isn't really dying since god is forever/immortal, and therefore not really a sacrifice. But if jesus was a man untill he was crucified and then was elevetad to something else (better?), he had eternal life in heaven to gain.
Jeremiah 29:11-13: For I know the thoughts and plans that I have for you, says the Lord, thoughts and plans for welfare and peace and not for evil, to give you hope in your final outcome. Then you will call upon Me, and you will come and pray to Me, and I will hear and heed you. Then you will seek Me, inquire for, and require Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
Jeremiah 29:11-13: For I know the thoughts and plans that I have for you, says the Lord, thoughts and plans for welfare and peace and not for evil, to give you hope in your final outcome. Then you will call upon Me, and you will come and pray to Me, and I will hear and heed you. Then you will seek Me, inquire for, and require Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
I think you are confusing predetermination with freewill. The world and all things are predetermined because God has watched the "movie" to the end. The end is already known even though each actor can say or do anything they want during the film. To us we are living life for the first time - God has already watched our lives.
That is pretty much his point, isn't it? He is saying, that if god have watched the movie to the end, then it is already predetermined what we all do, and free will is an illusion. The fact that i am now hoing to pick up my mug and take a sip is not an act of free will, it is predetermined.
Watching and partaking in the outcome are two entirely different responses. I am free to do as I please and so are you. The end will remain the same. The end will be as foretold and there is nothing anyone can to to change or stop it.
Response to all your posts about freewill: My point is that if everything is predetermined, there is only Fatalism and then free will is just an illusion. It doesn't matter if you don't know what is going to happen, as long as it's predetermined then free will is pointless.
Example: A bullet is fired at you, it's predetermined to NOT hit you. You will surely try to avoid this bullet since you don't know if it's predetermined to hit you or not, maybe with a bulletproof-vest, or by dodging, but no matter what you do this bullet will not hit you.
So when you get home, you feel good about using your freewill to take precausions and thereby avoiding the bullet, but what you don't realise is that since that bullet was predetermined to not hit you, it doesn't matter what choices you made. You could have just stod there and the results would have been the same. That is illusion of free will, when you think your actions matter, when they in reality don't. Please explain why you think your actions matter if everything is predetermined?
George Washington. His coat had four bullet holes but he was never hit. Numerous horses were shot out from under him and he was never injured. I would say if George Washington had been shot dead the American outcome might have been different. Was he destined to be the founder of the USA ... you make the call.Was George a Christian, yes.He felt he was guided by God. I believe George was right. Was his way paved by God?I believe it was was, as I believe it was his choice to pursue his dream.
(2) Also there is no valid motive there is only sin against God's Law. Therefore, you need a redeemer (Jesus) for sin. Since there are people and children who have never experience Jesus or are to young to understand their sin before they perish God has a plan for these souls as well. In your case you have been exposed to Jesus and therefore are without excuse. You reasons for non-believe or belief are your freewill.
So what about the massmurders and genocides ordered by god in the old testament? Murder is a sin according to
gods law, these people comitted murder before jesus was around to relieve them from their sins. Did they go to hell? Allso: Didn't we allready conclude that I am either predetermined to be saved or not, so it doesn't matter what I do. My free will has nothing to do with it. Either I am predetermined to be saved, or not. What ever my actions are, I can not escape that predetermination!
No actually they went to Abraham's bosom in the earth. There hell is separated from the area that held the old testament saints. When Jesus died on the cross He descended first and released the old testament saints. Then he ascended to be with the Father. Ephesians 4:10 "He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things."
Ok, so they first went to Abraham's bosom, waited for jesus to come and relieve them from their sins and then went on to heaven. Therefore there are a bunch of former massmurderers in heaven (among others) Correct?
My understanding is that God is all knowing. The past, the present and the future are already determined in the small and large sense. In order to fulfill prophesy God would have to know every decision that we will make beforehand. Otherwise the outcome could be changed.
So is your will really free then? If everything is predetermined to an extent that god knows everything you will do during your lifetime, because he has to fulfill the prophesy. Basically we are just small pieces of the puzzle that will eventually end up in the prophesy being fulfilled. You can do whatever you want, but no matter what you choose to do, you can't affect the final outcome. Is that free will or the illusion of free will?
The prophecy must be fulfilled or 1. God is a liar or 2. Does not exsit. You are correct the final outcome is sealed we are headed to a global conflict, one world government and monetary system. The difference is we now have the capability to wipe all life off the planet.A hundred years ago this was not possible. You have that choice and so do I.I can do and say anything I like and so can you but you can't change what the Bible says is coming and the things that have already been fulfilled.
It is free will and you are allowed to do anything you please and you probably do. In the end all will be completed just as written because at some point God will put an end to it all. A most difficult concept for non believers to understand because they do not know comprehend the Bible and it's numerous concepts.
And another thing: If everything is predetermined what is the point of doing anything? Take this discussion we are having for example: If I am predetermined to not be saved, then it doesn't matter how good your arguments are, or how hard I search for jesus. I still wont get saved. And if I am predetermined to be saved, I will. No matter what. So why not just sit back, relax and enjoy the ride? Since both the path and the goal is fixed, god will have anticipated this and it wont change anything.
Yes you are right there. Your salvation is already predetermined one way or another. God knows the outcome. Here is the kicker - God uses man because God created man in His image. God was nailed to the cross as a man. God has given you the opportunity to hear the word of God through men. He has opened a door to you through me or others that you may encounter. He is testing me as he is testing you. Do I profess God and Jesus? Am I afraid of speaking His name? No. Jesus is my redeemer.
Once again, if me being saved or not is allready predetermined then it doesn't matter what I do, one way or another I will either get saved, or not. And that part about being tested doesn't make sense since god allready knows the outcome.
"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Interesting that he is not burning up or anything. He is thirsty -very uncomfortable and still communicating. Are there degrees of hell?
You tell me, I am not convinced such a place exists. But shouldn't the bible mention such levels or degrees of hell? Something like in The Divine Comedy perhaps. And again, please post exact references to the bible.
This verse is a good verse because it talks about how people won't believe.
Luke
"but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead".
An interesting observation. I wonder if people are predetermined? I think this is very deep passage.
Please post exact references, I do like to read the context. And about the predetermination: Since god is omnipotent and allknowing everything is predetermined in a way, isn't it?
"...everything is predetermined in a way, isn't it?"
Yes in a way it is and Satan is also aware of this fact. His fate is sealed and the end will come. In many ways the world is following the path the Bible has outlined just as it was written 2000 years ago. Jesus beat Satan on the cross and man's soul can be spared the torment of hell through his work. Satan's time is short.
Well, I really didn't mean predetermined in a broad sense, I meant predetermined like in god knows what you will have for breakfast tomorrow. Sure, you have free will to change what you will eat, and god will not interfere with that, but god knows if you will or not. In my opinion allknowing must really mean ALLknowing and therefore everything is predetermined, or am I wrong?
Punishment is nothing more than separation from the creator. If God is love then to be absent from love is the opposite. There is plenty of that (no love) now if you look around the world. Some people love some don't - I would prefer to be with the ones that love. So punishment is separation from the creator a place without love.
Ok, but according to the bible hell (punishment) is a little more then "separation from the creator" and "a place without love".
Matthew 13:50, Mark 9:48, Revelation 14:10, Revelation 14:11 Revelation 20:14, Revelation 20:15. If god is love (i.e pure love i.e. not a shred of evil) how can he create a place (hell) that is so evil?
Hell-Is separation.If you believe in ultimate good then there must be a place of ultimate hell.If you reject what the promise is, then you will live in a place that will forever remind you that God does exists.One way or another you will believe in God you might say.After all, it was your choice, not Gods.Gods wish is to take care of you, for you to meet those that await you but if you don't want to, then what alternative is there?You must know that there is a creator one way or another.
Why must I "know that there is a creator one way or another"? Where in the bible is this stated? And you didn't really answer how a god that is "ultimate good" can create a place of "ultimate hell", wouldn't that mean that he can't be ultimate good, since he dreamed up such a place?
"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
"...to avoid punishment" I will explain. God and his kingdom are perfect(without sin). Everything else is tainted/broken. God wish is that everyone will join Him in his perfect kingdom(without sin). Everyone else will be separated. Hell is actually the separation from God completely - nothing more. Who runs hell? It's not God. It's has been set aside for those who have rejected God, a place of separation from the Creator. Sin is all evil that exists.
Ok, so we have free will to sin or be saved. And to join god in his kingdom you have to abstain from sin. But this doesn't really answer why you have to believe in jesus's sacrifice to avoid punishment. What about living a sinfree life without accepting jesus?
There is no abstaining from sin. You will sin until you die. All of us will, we can't help it. We sin because we are sinners. If you believe in Jesus then when you die you will be allowed entrance into heaven because Jesus has paid for everyone's life of sin. Anyone who claims to lead a sinless life is a liar and lying is also a sin. The Bible just points out what types of sins we all commit.
If there is a definition of what is a sin ("Sin is all evil that exists") then you should be able to avoid doing sin, by avoiding doing evil, shouldn't you? Is it a sin to exist? If so, how is it evil to exist? A newborn child of two muslims dies of SIDS 2 days after it was born. What will happen to this child and why?
You can't avoid sin. Sin is in our fabric. No it is not a sin to exist, God created us to exist. The child will go to be with the creator. Why? Because the child is created by God and has never made a conscious decision to reject Christ. Only God knows the heart - no man knows and no man can tell you whether or not you will go to heaven, only the Creator knows what is in your heart.
There are two issue here. The first is sin and yes you are born into sin. The second is an age of accountability. At what age are you accountable and know what decision you are making? God knows that age of accountability because God knows the heart. Makes the process very simple and understandable and removes man from the whole process - a most perfect solution I would say.
So what about if a person who is mentally retarded commits a murder, this person might not be able to understand right from wrong, is he/she accountable? Or a person that otherwise has a full understanding of right and wrong, but is suddenly overcome with mental illness and commits a murder, he/she later recovers from the illness, is he/she still accountable?
These are all hypotheticals and not a decision of man. God knows the motive and the heart.
Matthew 7:1-2
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Ok, So it's not really about sin then? It's about accountability? One person can commit
hundreds of murders and go to heaven and another person can swear once and go to hell. Just as long as those murders were comitted with what god concludes to be a valid motive and a "pure heart" (lack of better word), and that swearword was uttered with and invalid motive and "unpure heart". Correct?
No. You have twisted age of accountability and sin. Your question was about kids and sin and I responded that there is an age of accountability. My response was that only God can know when you can take responsibility for your actions against His Law. The same is true in society. 18 years of age for crime in the USA and 21 to drink in the USA. That is the age of accountability in law terms for us here. Also we commit thousands of sins against God's Law so using one is a poor example.Cont
Do you know who demands punishment for man's sin? I call tell you that it is not God even though that is what you think. I think that is a question that is worth an answer, don't you?
Well, I am no expert on the bible but I would say that to my understanding punishment for man's sin is needed to differentiate between what is sin and what is gods law. So the concept of sin and law requires sins to be punished, otherwise there is no law because law without and punishable opposit is useless. But I could be way off here :)
That is a fairly good answer. Let me go one more step. Satan understands God's law. Satan knows that blood is required if man sins. Man was created without sin, prefect in God's eyes. Satan tricked man and therefore realized that God would have to punish man (hell). Satan wins right? Wrong -God has Jesus crucified to save man the punishment that the law demands. Jesus blood covers man's sin. The debt is now paid. The requirement of man - simple, you must believe Jesus paid the debt.
If you believe that Jesus has taken the punishment for you then you are saved by Him. If you don't then the debt still has to be paid. Who will pay it? The only person left is the individual. There is no one left, it is God's attempt to rescue us from the law. The universe is full of laws and our lives are guided by laws. An intriguing concept that is very deep the more you investigate.
That's a very thorough answer but for me it raises a question: god makes a law that requires blood if it's broken. Man is cheated into breaking it. gods law demands blood so jesus is sacrificed to spare man. (not very omnipotent to have to obey your own laws, but disregard that)Man must believe in this to be spared hell. Why is it necessary that I believe in this to avoid punishment? Allso, you didn't answer my question about disagreeing with god.
Good observation regarding omnipotent - lets go one step farther now. God knew we would sin before we did. But how do you create a being with free will then limit what that being can do? You can't if it has a truly free will. So God allowed us to sin and also gave us a Savior. Just as we had free will to sin we also have free will to have a Savior. So you see, just as we have sinned, we can also choose to save ourselves. It's our choice.
I am sure if their was another way God would have used it, but then again I really don't know. How many years do you think we have left? The world seems like it's on a collection course. Looks like man is ready to breed himself out of a planet pretty soon.
I really have no idea. Everything could go from decent to really bad in a few years if something drastic like a big natural disaster or a world war occurred. I do think this planet could sustain many more, but the way we (mostly the developed countries) are using the planets resoures today is not viable.
You have brought God to your level and you have determined in your mind how you would like God to save man. You have also stated how you would like God present himself. God does not work for you or me. Seek and you shall find. The key word is seek, and also the word shall. Shall means you will find. You have to give up your ways, otherwise He will be hidden from you. I did seek and I did find. Your opportunity is the same as mine. No one has the advantage over someone else.
I agree that god does not work for you or me. But he loves me, it says so in the bible (doesn't it?). So if he loves me, why is he willing to let me burn for eternity if I can't find him? Would you pour gasoline on your children and light them up if the didn't tell you that they love you? No, offcourse not. Why? Because you really love them. So why is god willing to let me burn if I can't find him? My conclusion is that he is a hypocrite and doesn't love me. What is your interpretation?
My interpretation is that we sinned and therefore need intercession. That intercession can only be made by Jesus. So if you don't want it then have it your way. The Father is allowing the son (you) to make a choice. Bad choice but it's all yours.
No I don't, but I also think that anyone who would allow himself to be tortured to death so I would not have to suffer the same is worth listening to. Guess it's all in how you look at it.
Ok, so according to the bible I will burn for eternity if I can't believe/find/listen to god, who had his son (or part of himself) tortured to death so I would not have to suffer the same. And you don't think that this is right. Does that mean you disagree with god in other cases too?
Let me be clear, I agree with God and the Bible. I would say that it is possible you have not looked very well, but that is only my opinion. The Bible is clear that everyone has belief or even an opportunity to believe - Is this your opportunity now? Are you asking the relevant questions or are you trying to set a trap? The Pharisees found themselves in that same place and they were church leadership. Sometimes our pride prevents us from allowing our heart to listen.
I asked if you feel it's right that god punishes me if I can't find him? And you answered that you don't agree with that. How is that not disagreeing? I see what you mean, but I have looked and I have not found any evidence for god that matters if you do not allready believe. And I know that you will tell me to give in to god and that if I truly search then I will find and things like that. But that is not how I work. I can't believe in something based on faith alone, I need more. Got any?
"So why do you think it is that he keeps himself hidden?" Many would debate the opposite. If you believe the account of Jesus, which science confirms, then you would have to determine if he was God or just a man. The most studied person in history is either the biggest liar or He is the Son of God.
Mythical characters are very good a keeping themselves hidden...in fact it's very easy if you don't actually exist.
Science confirms Jesus huh? Well that's a new one ... I'm sure it would have been front page news if that were the case.
You also say that Jesus is either the biggest liar or he is the Son of God. Of course you've missed out the third option...his life and words were all made up by others.
If jesus existed or not as a person doesn't really matter to my question. My point is that if this really happened, it happened more then 2000 years ago. That makes it kind of hard to belive. So why do you think he keep himself hidden today? Hope that clears up what I meant.
So if he appeared today and 2,000 years from now would they not say the same thing? He is the most documented figure in the history of the world. There has and will always be more discussion on Him than any other person - does that not count? Do you believe in Columbus?
Probably, so why not show us that he exist on say a yearly basis? I don't agree that he is the most documented figure in the history of the world. Most famous people living in western society is much more documented and by that I meen easier to prove to have existed. He might be the most discussed person (assuming he acctually did exist) but no, I don't think it counts for anything. Why should it? Yes, I do think Columbus existed, but there are much more reliable sources from that time.
How do you know they are reliable? What scientific proof is there. There are people that believe the holocaust never happened or that 9/11 was an inside job. I think the burden of proof lies within the individual don't you? Is it not up to the individual to go looking for the answers?
There are several correlating sources from that period of time. I think the burden of proof for the individual lies within the individual, you can believe what ever you want. But if you can't offer any proof that matters to me, I have the right to say it's a stupid belief. Yes, it's up to the individual to look for answears. That is what I am doing. I am trying to figure out why god has not showed himself to us in a clear way for 2000 years? Do you see any logical reason for this? Because I dont
You must look for God on his terms not yours. You want God to manifest himself in a way that you want and therefore, have God answer to you. He answers to no one. He has set the rules and if you do not wish to play then that is your right you might say. So in the end you can have it your way and God will be blameless for your decision. I think it is an in-genius concept and weeds out the true believers from the non believers. If you look you will find - I guess it is just up to you.
God told you all this did he? Or..let me guess..other humans told you this or you read it in the bible (a book also written by men a very long time ago). There's no virtue in belief without true evidence. That's just called being gullible.
Ok, so god does not show himself because he wants you to play by his rules and look for him. This is what Erwing Goffman would call mystifications. By not allowing people to see him, he can make whatever claims he wants and the audience will not question them because he has created a social distance between himself and the audience. This is basically a form of social control. But what I still don't understand is this: (see next post)
"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) This is a demonstration of love without conditions (i.e. unconditional love). He demonstrates his love by sacrificing his son without any demands on us sinners. So how is this unconditional love unifiable with letting us burn in hell just because he couldn't be bothered to show himself?
But even if I believe that "he is the sin sacrifice" this doesn't make much sense. god is omnipotent, therefore he could have choosen another way of relieving man of sin. Why choose to sacrifice his own son? To me that would be the very far down on the list of solutions. Allso; it bothers me that while god shows unconditional love in some parts of the bible (Romans 5:8 as mentioned) in other parts there are consequences (i.e. hell) of not believing in him. (Continued in next post)
I think everyone needs a sin atonement. So if believing that Jesus is that sin atonement then I am going to believe. Now I am saved and can go on - seems simple enough to me.
Earlier when I made a statement claiming that believing in god is a way of simplifying life you wrote that life is not simple, and actually so complex that there is no solution. But here you basically say: I need sin atonement, jesus provides sin atonement. Therefore I believe in jesus and my life gets easier. To me, that is simplifying. What is it to you?
If God, the father and God the Son, and the Holly Spirit are 3 in 1 (Trinity), then he did "show" himself. It's like water, vapor, and ice. Three variations of the same thing.
I understand the trinity but wheter or not god showed himself 2000+ years ago is not relevant for my question. What I want to know is why he doesn't show himself today, or tomorrow or weekly? This is how I should have written, sorry about that: So how is this unconditional love unifiable with letting us burn in hell just because he couldn't be bothered to show himself TODAY?
I see what you mean, but in my meaning there is no soul (no proof that I know of) and the meaning of life is not universall. Here is how I would answear those questions in a generall way: Why are we here? Why do you feel that we are here? What is our purpose? What purpose is meaningfull to you? Why are people mean? For a huge variety of reasons, allso. What appears mean in your point of view might not be in theirs. Bad things happen to good people by chance, and vice versa. What did you find?
That is correct, proof is faith. Faith is the feeling. It is the spiritual not the tangible. What keeps the cosmos together - unknown (no proof). Where did the first replicating DNA come from - unknown (no proof). Two theories with the same dilemma you might say. So in what faith do you rest your belief? A crossroads, a choice.I am, therefore I exist. I comprehend, therefore I reason. Meaningful to me is the knowledge of my reason for being.
Some proof is faith. What keeps the cosmos together/where did the first replicating DNA come from. We do have theories for these questions, and as you know a scientific theory has to fit with all the existing evidence and it must be falsifiable. My point is that a scientific theory does not require faith in the same way that say belief in a god does. This is because a scientific theory is "built" on evidence and can be falsified, as opposed to a god. What do you consider to be proof of god?
Science does not have to require the same faith is correct, although, when dealing with science in regards to man's origin it does. Since no one knows man origin we must rely on what has been discovered or written. Science can be used as a tool to help believers discover more of God. We use science in the same way you know. Science is only a tool, science in itself is not an answer. Proof of God is Jesus, Bible, testimony, artifacts, prophesy, and our own intuition.
Regarding man's origins: Yes, we must rely on what has been discovered and written. Discovering things, then making a theory that fit with those discoveries (and all earlier discoveries) and predicts what possible disoveries might look like in the future is basically what this type of science is all about. I don't really see how this would require faith. Yes, science can be used to discover more of god. However, most scientific results do not speak in favor of a god. Take prayer for example:
I would agree that science is not in favor of God. I know because of my science background. Science is the discovery of things excluding God. Because God cannot be proven scientifically as we know it. The explanation for the physical must be discussed in terms of comprehension through the explanation of what we know. The theory of God cannot be allowed to dictate a conclusion, therefore, God is eliminated from the equation and a man made explanation is used.
Yes, god cannot be proven scientifically. However, this does not explain why prayer has been proven to be useless. Proof of a significant effect of prayer would not prove the existence of a god (or gods), but it would not damage "the case for god". But as said prayer has been proven to have no significant effect, this in the same way does not disprove the existence of a god (or gods), but it certainly does not help "the case for god". Why do you think that prayer has had no effect when tested?
Prayer is a personal communication between a person and the Creator. The Creator does not grant wishes. I can tell you that prayer has worked in my life and on more than one occasion. Stepping out in complete faith was a difficult step for me to achieve - but I did and the results were undeniable. God will not partake in an experiment only a personal communication on a spiritual level. I have been blessed by God and I am His servant.
But why wouldn't he partake in an experiment? All I want to know is why god has to make it so hard to belive in him? If he were to simply manifest his powers for us non-believers somehow then there would be no argument. Free will would not be canceled, one could still choose not to believe, but there would be no argument.
This has several times been proven to have no significant effect on how well a person recovers from different diseases and other things. I agree that science is a tool, but the answers it contributes are far more "sturdy" then personal opinions and similar things.
What I have always wondered is why god makes it so difficult to belive in him? He doesn't offer much proof that matters for someone who doesn't allready belive in him. If he was to show himself to the world, (or manifest his powers in some other obvious way)lots more people would start beliveing in him, but it still wouldn't effect our free will, everyone would still have the option of not believing. So why do you think it is that he keeps himself hidden?
And God said: "Let there be Fig Trees!"; and there were Fig Trees. And God saw that they were good. And one day, God was walking in the Garden(as was His wont); and He happened upon the Fig Tree. And God said unto the Fig Tree: "Thou shalt not bear Figs out of season; for in the day thou bearest Figs out of season; Thou shalt surely die"
And on the second day, God created Jesus in His own image; in His own image created He Him. And God appointed Jesus to tend the Garden, and said unto Him: "Of all the Trees Thou mayest freely eat; in Fig season, Thou mayest eat Figs; in Apple season, Thou mayest eat Apples....etc"
And one day Jesus was walking in the Garden(like Father; like Son); and He happened upon the Fig Tree, and He bethought Himself to eat some Figs(for He was an hungered); but the time for Figs was not yet, so the Tree didn't give a Fig! So Jesus cursed the Fig Tree, saying: "May you wither and rot; and may Satan cast thee into the Fire!" And behold! the Fig Tree gave up the ghost, and was no more!
And when Satan told God what had happened, God was wroth. And He said unto Jesus: "What hast Thou done with the Gift of Reason that I gavedst Thee, Thou unruly Child?; Now go to Heaven, and stay there until Thy Second Coming!"
Learn the New Parable of The Fig Tree! He that hath ears; let him hear. He that hath eyes; let him see!
"I invite all Christians to respond to my comment! I dare you!.......I DOUBLE DARE YOU!!"
Really now, what Christian actually cares what you think. We are right and you are wrong. God has spoken to us so your fight is with God. Ask him your silly little question if you dare. We are spiritually ordained. You of of the world - your argument has no merit with us.
"We are right and you are wrong"........."God has spoken to us"........."We are spiritually ordained"
HaHaHa!! PMPLOL(That meansPiss My Pants Laughing Out Loud in internet slang)
" your fight is with God"
No it isn't! I believe in Nature and Nature's God; So I don't curse my cat for not having puppies; nor do I curse my sister for not having a dick; nor do I curse my avocado tree in May!
If you do not care what any non-christians think, than why do you keep posting here? If you already have the truth, then why do you need to argue with anyone? Seems redundant.
And what kind of individual would that make me? Yes, "comforting" would be the key word here. Have you ever tried stepping out of your comfort-zone and perhaps taking a different perspective on your "truth"? You know, truth is a relative thing. What is true for you might not be true for me and vice versa. So claiming to have some kind of universal truth is rather meaningless.
For 32 years I walked like you. No longer walking in darkness not understanding life I found the meaning of life, this world, and all of it's misery in one simple book. Needless to say, I understand why we are like we are, why we do the things we do, and why we act the way we act. My prospective is from both sides and I can tell you this side is much better. But serve yourself it's your choice. Truth is the meaning of life - I know what that is.
Good for you, but to me that is a huge oversimplification. To me this world is not simple, and neither is my life in this world. I can see how it must feel good to "understand" all these things, but in my opinion this is not understanding, this is simplifying for the sake of not having to deal with all the questions which otherwise occur. I agree that you know the truth and the meaning of life, for you.
Simple - hardly. In fact, it is so complex that there is no solution. The father you get away from the truth the more complex it gets. You can work toward your goal but as time goes by you will find that there is no solution only more compounded problems. As long as man tries to find the solution it will be hidden from him because man cannot understand through his own ability. Once you give up self then you understand and come to a place of peace.
So we agree that neither this world nor our life in it is simple. Where we seem to disagree is that you claim that there is an absolute truth that will give peace and enable understanding of the difficult questions in life. I on the other hand claim that there are no absolute truths, there are only personal truths. And in my opinion finding this personal truth can be achived by man through his on ability. To me it's all about creating meaning.
Yes, we agree on that. I also have personal truths. Because my understanding of life is very personal and I view everyone in a different light. God has spoken to me in an indiviual way. I still have all the same choices you have, I am just no longer interested in them like I once was.For me, it is as though I have been given a instruction booklet on man and woman.Yes, I know you feel that man can do it by his own ability - War/famine/disease/peace.For 2,000 years but the outcome is the same
Creating meaning can take all sorts of forms, since it's what you, as an individual consider to be meaningful. Religion, politics, science, your job, your family, stamps, cats, whatever. Most of the time it's usually som combination of many different things which for an individual creates meaning and truth. But don't get me wrong, I am not claiming that everyone has found their meaning and their truth, I just think that everyone is capable of doing so, without having to "give up self".
Yes, you are correct that those things can help you feel a sense of meaning. A combination is even better, but it is the satisfaction of the soul that I was after. The meaining of life itself. Why are we here? What is our purpose? Why are people mean? In a world where the absolute worst can happen to the best of people - why? I want to help people and to understand them, I never expected to find what I found.
It is not that I do not care what you think, rather that your understanding of what you believe is based in human understanding. I do not follow that theory since my understanding is based on the theory of God. I am not arguing with anyone and only replying to your comments.
LOL IT´S ABOUT THE TALENTS, IT´S LIKE YOU ARE FUNNY BUT YOU DON´T SHOW IT TO THE WORLD, THEN YOU BETTER BE DEAD LOL, SAME LAMP ANALOGY LOL
gouki02 1 year ago
Very funny! :)
pauswa1966 1 year ago
Great video. cant wait for your next one
GarryW05 1 year ago
you should do stand up
dennisrayso 1 year ago
watch?v=beCWAft0Ydw
watch this if you are truly curious. if you are just trying to humiliate christians, dont bother. You are better off in your fantasy world
JeppyWick 1 year ago
@JeppyWick
It was a stupid answer - and a stupid parable!
It's not tree's fault that it's out of season, it's the idiot who expects to have fruits all the time fault! So if Jesus had chosen this parable to make a point - it was a stupid choice! It only shows ignorance.
grozde 1 year ago
-_-
BRESHEET 2 years ago
bloody strange indeed..
Omhra 2 years ago
You asked..., "You nuts really do enjoy these nonsensical mental gymnasics don't you? " And you don't??
haeema 2 years ago
I don't need any mental gymnastics. I just read whats there...analyze the evidence..and if it adds up or makes sense..then fine. But the bible (like many religious texts) has an unbelieveable amount of contradictions and problems with it. And to believe that every single one is answerable through incredible amounts of shoehorning and mental gymnastics really does require a serious leap of faith. lol.
kalsolarUK 2 years ago 3
Israel rejected their awaited messiah, because they were sacrificing their firstborn lambs without blemishes, out of Season. It was not the Time for Israel to be providing the feast of God.
haeema 2 years ago
The beginning month & beginning year is the time of Rash ha shah nah. It is in the season of Fall. Do you know what the wicked king Jeroboam did with God's ordained beginning month? Don't tell me you did not read it, when you read the bible completely through!
haeema 2 years ago
Did you not learn from your once complete bible reading that the Fig tree was used only as an instrument to represent the people Israel? What was done to the Fig tree, so too shall be done to Israel who is out of Season according to God's Commandments.
haeema 2 years ago
A parable huh? In other words you're saying that Jesus just pretended to be angry with the tree? And then he Killed it without stating his real reason in the hopes that at a later date someone would invent a parablistic reason for it and put it in revelation etc. Yeah right. LOL. You nuts really do enjoy these nonsensical mental gymnasics don't you?
kalsolarUK 2 years ago 6
The United States was founded on the principle of Manifest Destiny. Manifest Destiny is the historical belief that the United States is destined, even divinely ordained, to expand across the North American continent, from the Atlantic seaboard to the Pacific Ocean. ...Was this done? Yes! There are lots of examples of God will if one cares to examine the evidence. When you think of Christianity what county(s) do you think of and why?
ub30f 2 years ago
I assume you mean country(s)? Well, USA since it has such a strong christian base (even tough it's reducing according to the latest ARIS report). France, because of the revolution and what that did for christianity in europe. And Sweden, since it's one of the most secular countries in the world and allso my home.
Nysswald 2 years ago
Country, yes, sorry about that. Yes USA because for the most part it is the last stand of mass Christianity. The AIRS report is correct. I would also say most who claim to be Christians are far from it as well. Take the election of Obama for an example. I know no true Christians that voted for him, so we are an ever smaller group. What does this mean? For Christians it means the Bible is correct as predicted. It means we are reaching the end.
ub30f 2 years ago
This is interesting to me. Why is it that no true christian would vote for Obama? Forgive me if there is an obvious answer, I am not very educated regarding american politics.
Nysswald 2 years ago
First, he claimed to be Christian and he is not. His answers were inconsistent with the Bible. Second, his policies are against Biblical teaching on some core issues ie. abortion, sex education, and drug policies. There are other issues but those are the main reasons.
ub30f 2 years ago
Ok, I see. On a different note, I think you missed replying to this statement: Not accepting versus rejecting are to very similar terms. Rejecting however implies a more active stand. But is it correct that I must know that jesus/god exists and still reject him to commit the unpardonable sin?
Nysswald 2 years ago
You cannot know God exists unless you allow the Holy Spirit to enter you. By actively not allowing the Holly Spirit to enter you you are in effect rejecting Christ. Rejecting is a more active individual stand.
ub30f 2 years ago
So I have to activly keep the holy spirit from entering me. Does that mean that if I do nothing, the holy spirit will enter me and I will know god?
Nysswald 2 years ago
I not sure about the 'active' part. You have a built in desire to understand the world and why you are here. God put that in you. Now as you grow older you have the opportunity to make a choice in what you believe. If you wish to understand and you feel like something is directing you or moving you that is the Holy Spirit. When you discard that feeling and allow your mind to control the decision that is man's way. The heart and mind war against one another only one can win out.
ub30f 2 years ago
I see.
Nysswald 2 years ago
I guess it would be to not believe in/accept god since the only way you can be be pardoned is by accepting jesus/god. It's kind of a circular argument or a catch 22, but that's my guess.
Nysswald 2 years ago
Close and in way correct but not really. Rejection of the Holy Spirit is the only unpardonable sin. You see you cannot understand the Bible as a man, you can read and still not understand it. It is only when you allow the Spirit to enter you do the words change meaning and the truth is revealed. Then you can accept Christ because the spirit has revealed what was meaningless before.I can hardly describe it, for me the world has been revealed and now I understand it's pain and suffering.
ub30f 2 years ago
Not accepting versus rejecting are to very similar terms. Rejecting however implies a more active stand. But is it correct that I must know that jesus/god exists and still reject him to commit the unpardonable sin?
Nysswald 2 years ago
You are missing the point: If everything is predetermined (we still agree on this, right?) George Washington's free will and choices had NOTHING to do with the outcome. It's simple, he was predetermined to NOT be hit by those bullets, so he wasn't. Had he been hit, then America might have looked different, but then that would have allso been predetermined. Please try to think of an example where your free will matter/make a difference if everything is predetermined, it's very hard.
Nysswald 2 years ago
Hard yes, because the line of freewill and predetermination are interwoven. God has a plan for everyone good and bad. Take Hitler - Was God's will completed through this action? Strange concept, right? The Jews ended up with their own land, most likely because of WWII. This had to occur, the Bible predicted a return to the land and now it is complete. Because of this we are closer to the end.
ub30f 2 years ago
Yes, you could say that they are interwoven. However my point is this: and I think you understand this but you are not willing to say it for some reason, so I am going to. If everything is predetermined there is no real free will, this is a given. This means that either god is not all-knowing and free will exists. Or god is all-knowing and free will does not exist. What do you think about this?
Nysswald 2 years ago
Your stance on this is closer to Calvinism regarding freewill. God has a predestined path for all of us, if you will follow the path. You still have the opportunity to screw it up and most of us do. Washington was following God path. He could of resigned from the Army and that would have been against his determined path. Washington made the right choice.
ub30f 2 years ago
I disagree, and your are allso changing your description of free will. You stated earlier that "The past, the present and the future are allready determined in the small and large sense. In order to fulfill prophesy God would have to know every decision that we will make beforehand. Otherwise the outcome could be changed." What you describe is fatalism in it's purest form. And according to fatalism there is no free will or free will is meaningless (i.e. the illusion of free will). Thoughts?
Nysswald 2 years ago
Your freewill will go against God's ideal plan for you but you will still accomplish God's plan but in a different way. He already knows your life plan and he has allowed you to choose it. By choosing your plan you have exercised freewill, no one has made a decision for you. But God already knows your decision ahead of time and he know what outcome it will bring. Your plan is already in God's master plan so you are still fulfilling God's will one way or another.
ub30f 2 years ago
If god knows your whole life, there can be no ideal plan and different plan. There can be only one plan. That plan is how you will live your life, and it will follow exactly what god allready knows. No matter how intricately you put it you can't dispute that if god knows how your life begins, everything you will do during your lifetime, and how your life will end: Your choices doesn't matter. You still haven't given an exapmple where free will makes a difference if everything is predetermined.
Nysswald 2 years ago
"....ideal plan and different plan." That is correct. You are right. Your choice does matter to you because you have to make them and will. God will already know your choice. Freewill only matters to you and will only effect you not God. God already knows your choice. Of course your choice may effect others but God has already taken that into account. So even the people without belief still fulfill the word of God and prophecy. The world WILL turn from God especially in the last days.
ub30f 2 years ago
Yes, our choices matter to us, but only because it gives us the illusion that these choices matter to the big picture. Since we know now that the big picture is allready predetermined, this illusion is destroyed and we realise that our choices are meaningless even to ourselves. Example: You choose to save money to travel abroad, but why? If god wants you to go abroad you will get there somehow, and if he doesn't want you to go, then there is no point saving, since something will stop you.
Nysswald 2 years ago
Massmurderers accepting jesus go to heaven. Then, theoritcally I could go out
tonight, kill a bunch off people. Accept jesus. Be gunned down by the police
and end up in heaven, correct?
Nysswald 2 years ago
Yes that is correct.I will clarify this by saying God knows the heart so just saying you accept Jesus and meaning it are two different things.Did Jesus not allow himself to be murdered?As long as people believed in Him they are forgiven. Wow, what a powerful message of forgiveness. Jesus was either a mad man, or He really was the Son of God. What did Jesus have to gain? "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
ub30f 2 years ago
Offcourse, one would really have to mean it. My point is that a person that has lived an atrocius life and minutes ago has murdered lots of people can end up in heaven, and one of his victims who has lived a extremly good life, helping people in all sorts of ways, but have not had the chance to learn about and accept god, will end up in hell. Is this really fair?
Nysswald 2 years ago
God will deal with the individuals who did not 'learn' about Jesus. I can be sure his judgement will be correct and fair. As far as the murderer God will forgive him if he accepts Jesus. Why, because he believes with faith. The rest do not believe and have no faith so there is no atonement for their sin. They must pay for their own sin. Satan knows that God must stay true to His law.
ub30f 2 years ago
When you say that his judgement will be correct and fair do you mean that this individual will go to hell for not knowing about jesus and that this is fair? Or that there is a chance that this person will go to heaven based on how god judges him?
Nysswald 2 years ago
I am saying that God will be fair and understands the heart - You know this is an interesting concept and I believe that everyone will be given an opportunity to believe.
ub30f 2 years ago
Do you mean that everyone will be given an opportunity to believe in their life on earth? Or after they have died (but before they are "sentenced")? Or some other time? Allso, is this an idea that is backed up by the bible?
Nysswald 2 years ago
In my opinion yes everyone will be given an opportunity but I could be wrong. There are lots of variables as you pointed out such as children, handicapped, or even pockets of isolated people. I know God is loving God and a fair God so I will not split hairs on this subject. As far as the Bible is concerned that is my interpretation but I could be wrong.
ub30f 2 years ago
Ok, I respect that.
Nysswald 2 years ago
Well, I don't know what he had to gain. But I must say that I do not see how it is the ultimate sacrifice that it is often mentioned to be. He did come back to life after all.
Nysswald 2 years ago
His return to life was not as mortal man. Also his showing after death fulfilled prophecy that death would not contain the believer. That death as we know know it is only a passageway to eternal life - I rather like that.
ub30f 2 years ago
Well, isn't it even less of an ultimate sacrifice since he came back as something greater? I would think that the ultimate sacrifice would be to sacrifice everything, and gain nothing. Not sacrifice everything and gain eternal life in heaven. I understand that it served other purposes aswell, but I feel that it is wrong to call it the ultimate sacrifice.
Nysswald 2 years ago
What did he have to gain?
ub30f 2 years ago
Well, it becomes a bit unclear since god is jesus, and jesus therefore allready has access to heaven and thereby nothing to gain, however: If this is the case, then dying on the cross isn't really dying since god is forever/immortal, and therefore not really a sacrifice. But if jesus was a man untill he was crucified and then was elevetad to something else (better?), he had eternal life in heaven to gain.
Nysswald 2 years ago
The fig tree represents Israel
SeriousVulture 2 years ago
Yes, I agree. So the time of the end is short because the tree has produced buds and spring is very near and so is the Son of Man.
ub30f 2 years ago
What is the only unpardonable sin? Do you know?
ub30f 2 years ago
ROTFL
Vogter2100 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Jeremiah 29:11-13: For I know the thoughts and plans that I have for you, says the Lord, thoughts and plans for welfare and peace and not for evil, to give you hope in your final outcome. Then you will call upon Me, and you will come and pray to Me, and I will hear and heed you. Then you will seek Me, inquire for, and require Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
ub30f 2 years ago
Jeremiah 29:11-13: For I know the thoughts and plans that I have for you, says the Lord, thoughts and plans for welfare and peace and not for evil, to give you hope in your final outcome. Then you will call upon Me, and you will come and pray to Me, and I will hear and heed you. Then you will seek Me, inquire for, and require Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
ub30f 2 years ago
I think you are confusing predetermination with freewill. The world and all things are predetermined because God has watched the "movie" to the end. The end is already known even though each actor can say or do anything they want during the film. To us we are living life for the first time - God has already watched our lives.
ub30f 2 years ago
That is pretty much his point, isn't it? He is saying, that if god have watched the movie to the end, then it is already predetermined what we all do, and free will is an illusion. The fact that i am now hoing to pick up my mug and take a sip is not an act of free will, it is predetermined.
1stCainite 2 years ago
Watching and partaking in the outcome are two entirely different responses. I am free to do as I please and so are you. The end will remain the same. The end will be as foretold and there is nothing anyone can to to change or stop it.
ub30f 2 years ago
Response to all your posts about freewill: My point is that if everything is predetermined, there is only Fatalism and then free will is just an illusion. It doesn't matter if you don't know what is going to happen, as long as it's predetermined then free will is pointless.
Nysswald 2 years ago
Example: A bullet is fired at you, it's predetermined to NOT hit you. You will surely try to avoid this bullet since you don't know if it's predetermined to hit you or not, maybe with a bulletproof-vest, or by dodging, but no matter what you do this bullet will not hit you.
Nysswald 2 years ago
So when you get home, you feel good about using your freewill to take precausions and thereby avoiding the bullet, but what you don't realise is that since that bullet was predetermined to not hit you, it doesn't matter what choices you made. You could have just stod there and the results would have been the same. That is illusion of free will, when you think your actions matter, when they in reality don't. Please explain why you think your actions matter if everything is predetermined?
Nysswald 2 years ago
George Washington. His coat had four bullet holes but he was never hit. Numerous horses were shot out from under him and he was never injured. I would say if George Washington had been shot dead the American outcome might have been different. Was he destined to be the founder of the USA ... you make the call.Was George a Christian, yes.He felt he was guided by God. I believe George was right. Was his way paved by God?I believe it was was, as I believe it was his choice to pursue his dream.
ub30f 2 years ago
Or even better: Please think of an example where your actions matter/make a difference, if everything is predetermined.
Nysswald 2 years ago
John 7:16-17 - Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men.
ub30f 2 years ago
(2) Also there is no valid motive there is only sin against God's Law. Therefore, you need a redeemer (Jesus) for sin. Since there are people and children who have never experience Jesus or are to young to understand their sin before they perish God has a plan for these souls as well. In your case you have been exposed to Jesus and therefore are without excuse. You reasons for non-believe or belief are your freewill.
ub30f 2 years ago
So what about the massmurders and genocides ordered by god in the old testament? Murder is a sin according to
gods law, these people comitted murder before jesus was around to relieve them from their sins. Did they go to hell? Allso: Didn't we allready conclude that I am either predetermined to be saved or not, so it doesn't matter what I do. My free will has nothing to do with it. Either I am predetermined to be saved, or not. What ever my actions are, I can not escape that predetermination!
Nysswald 2 years ago
No actually they went to Abraham's bosom in the earth. There hell is separated from the area that held the old testament saints. When Jesus died on the cross He descended first and released the old testament saints. Then he ascended to be with the Father. Ephesians 4:10 "He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things."
ub30f 2 years ago
Ok, so they first went to Abraham's bosom, waited for jesus to come and relieve them from their sins and then went on to heaven. Therefore there are a bunch of former massmurderers in heaven (among others) Correct?
Nysswald 2 years ago
Yes correct. You can murder and may still be saved. You can do a lot of things and may still be saved.
ub30f 2 years ago
My understanding is that God is all knowing. The past, the present and the future are already determined in the small and large sense. In order to fulfill prophesy God would have to know every decision that we will make beforehand. Otherwise the outcome could be changed.
ub30f 2 years ago
So is your will really free then? If everything is predetermined to an extent that god knows everything you will do during your lifetime, because he has to fulfill the prophesy. Basically we are just small pieces of the puzzle that will eventually end up in the prophesy being fulfilled. You can do whatever you want, but no matter what you choose to do, you can't affect the final outcome. Is that free will or the illusion of free will?
Nysswald 2 years ago
The prophecy must be fulfilled or 1. God is a liar or 2. Does not exsit. You are correct the final outcome is sealed we are headed to a global conflict, one world government and monetary system. The difference is we now have the capability to wipe all life off the planet.A hundred years ago this was not possible. You have that choice and so do I.I can do and say anything I like and so can you but you can't change what the Bible says is coming and the things that have already been fulfilled.
ub30f 2 years ago
Again, if everything is predetermined then free will is of no use: If I wipe all life
of this planet, it's an action that god must have forseen, otherwise he can't
fulfill his prophesy, so it doesn't change anything. SO I ask again: Is it free will, or the illusion of free will?
Nysswald 2 years ago
It is free will and you are allowed to do anything you please and you probably do. In the end all will be completed just as written because at some point God will put an end to it all. A most difficult concept for non believers to understand because they do not know comprehend the Bible and it's numerous concepts.
ub30f 2 years ago
And another thing: If everything is predetermined what is the point of doing anything? Take this discussion we are having for example: If I am predetermined to not be saved, then it doesn't matter how good your arguments are, or how hard I search for jesus. I still wont get saved. And if I am predetermined to be saved, I will. No matter what. So why not just sit back, relax and enjoy the ride? Since both the path and the goal is fixed, god will have anticipated this and it wont change anything.
Nysswald 2 years ago
Yes you are right there. Your salvation is already predetermined one way or another. God knows the outcome. Here is the kicker - God uses man because God created man in His image. God was nailed to the cross as a man. God has given you the opportunity to hear the word of God through men. He has opened a door to you through me or others that you may encounter. He is testing me as he is testing you. Do I profess God and Jesus? Am I afraid of speaking His name? No. Jesus is my redeemer.
ub30f 2 years ago
Once again, if me being saved or not is allready predetermined then it doesn't matter what I do, one way or another I will either get saved, or not. And that part about being tested doesn't make sense since god allready knows the outcome.
Nysswald 2 years ago
LUKE
"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Interesting that he is not burning up or anything. He is thirsty -very uncomfortable and still communicating. Are there degrees of hell?
ub30f 2 years ago
You tell me, I am not convinced such a place exists. But shouldn't the bible mention such levels or degrees of hell? Something like in The Divine Comedy perhaps. And again, please post exact references to the bible.
Nysswald 2 years ago
This verse is a good verse because it talks about how people won't believe.
Luke
"but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead".
An interesting observation. I wonder if people are predetermined? I think this is very deep passage.
ub30f 2 years ago
Please post exact references, I do like to read the context. And about the predetermination: Since god is omnipotent and allknowing everything is predetermined in a way, isn't it?
Nysswald 2 years ago
"...everything is predetermined in a way, isn't it?"
Yes in a way it is and Satan is also aware of this fact. His fate is sealed and the end will come. In many ways the world is following the path the Bible has outlined just as it was written 2000 years ago. Jesus beat Satan on the cross and man's soul can be spared the torment of hell through his work. Satan's time is short.
ub30f 2 years ago
Well, I really didn't mean predetermined in a broad sense, I meant predetermined like in god knows what you will have for breakfast tomorrow. Sure, you have free will to change what you will eat, and god will not interfere with that, but god knows if you will or not. In my opinion allknowing must really mean ALLknowing and therefore everything is predetermined, or am I wrong?
Nysswald 2 years ago
Punishment is nothing more than separation from the creator. If God is love then to be absent from love is the opposite. There is plenty of that (no love) now if you look around the world. Some people love some don't - I would prefer to be with the ones that love. So punishment is separation from the creator a place without love.
ub30f 2 years ago
Ok, but according to the bible hell (punishment) is a little more then "separation from the creator" and "a place without love".
Matthew 13:50, Mark 9:48, Revelation 14:10, Revelation 14:11 Revelation 20:14, Revelation 20:15. If god is love (i.e pure love i.e. not a shred of evil) how can he create a place (hell) that is so evil?
Nysswald 2 years ago
Hell-Is separation.If you believe in ultimate good then there must be a place of ultimate hell.If you reject what the promise is, then you will live in a place that will forever remind you that God does exists.One way or another you will believe in God you might say.After all, it was your choice, not Gods.Gods wish is to take care of you, for you to meet those that await you but if you don't want to, then what alternative is there?You must know that there is a creator one way or another.
ub30f 2 years ago
Why must I "know that there is a creator one way or another"? Where in the bible is this stated? And you didn't really answer how a god that is "ultimate good" can create a place of "ultimate hell", wouldn't that mean that he can't be ultimate good, since he dreamed up such a place?
Nysswald 2 years ago
Philip. 2:9-11
"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
ub30f 2 years ago
thanks for posting references.
Nysswald 2 years ago
"...to avoid punishment" I will explain. God and his kingdom are perfect(without sin). Everything else is tainted/broken. God wish is that everyone will join Him in his perfect kingdom(without sin). Everyone else will be separated. Hell is actually the separation from God completely - nothing more. Who runs hell? It's not God. It's has been set aside for those who have rejected God, a place of separation from the Creator. Sin is all evil that exists.
ub30f 2 years ago
Ok, so we have free will to sin or be saved. And to join god in his kingdom you have to abstain from sin. But this doesn't really answer why you have to believe in jesus's sacrifice to avoid punishment. What about living a sinfree life without accepting jesus?
Nysswald 2 years ago
There is no abstaining from sin. You will sin until you die. All of us will, we can't help it. We sin because we are sinners. If you believe in Jesus then when you die you will be allowed entrance into heaven because Jesus has paid for everyone's life of sin. Anyone who claims to lead a sinless life is a liar and lying is also a sin. The Bible just points out what types of sins we all commit.
ub30f 2 years ago
If there is a definition of what is a sin ("Sin is all evil that exists") then you should be able to avoid doing sin, by avoiding doing evil, shouldn't you? Is it a sin to exist? If so, how is it evil to exist? A newborn child of two muslims dies of SIDS 2 days after it was born. What will happen to this child and why?
Nysswald 2 years ago
You can't avoid sin. Sin is in our fabric. No it is not a sin to exist, God created us to exist. The child will go to be with the creator. Why? Because the child is created by God and has never made a conscious decision to reject Christ. Only God knows the heart - no man knows and no man can tell you whether or not you will go to heaven, only the Creator knows what is in your heart.
ub30f 2 years ago
How can the child avoid sin if noone else can? "Sin is in our fabric" So at what age do you become a sinner then?
Nysswald 2 years ago
There are two issue here. The first is sin and yes you are born into sin. The second is an age of accountability. At what age are you accountable and know what decision you are making? God knows that age of accountability because God knows the heart. Makes the process very simple and understandable and removes man from the whole process - a most perfect solution I would say.
ub30f 2 years ago
So what about if a person who is mentally retarded commits a murder, this person might not be able to understand right from wrong, is he/she accountable? Or a person that otherwise has a full understanding of right and wrong, but is suddenly overcome with mental illness and commits a murder, he/she later recovers from the illness, is he/she still accountable?
Nysswald 2 years ago
These are all hypotheticals and not a decision of man. God knows the motive and the heart.
Matthew 7:1-2
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
ub30f 2 years ago
Ok, So it's not really about sin then? It's about accountability? One person can commit
hundreds of murders and go to heaven and another person can swear once and go to hell. Just as long as those murders were comitted with what god concludes to be a valid motive and a "pure heart" (lack of better word), and that swearword was uttered with and invalid motive and "unpure heart". Correct?
Nysswald 2 years ago
No. You have twisted age of accountability and sin. Your question was about kids and sin and I responded that there is an age of accountability. My response was that only God can know when you can take responsibility for your actions against His Law. The same is true in society. 18 years of age for crime in the USA and 21 to drink in the USA. That is the age of accountability in law terms for us here. Also we commit thousands of sins against God's Law so using one is a poor example.Cont
ub30f 2 years ago
cool...I'll get some marsh mallows out and get ready to do some toasing in hell.
kalsolarUK 2 years ago
Do you know who demands punishment for man's sin? I call tell you that it is not God even though that is what you think. I think that is a question that is worth an answer, don't you?
ub30f 2 years ago
Well, I am no expert on the bible but I would say that to my understanding punishment for man's sin is needed to differentiate between what is sin and what is gods law. So the concept of sin and law requires sins to be punished, otherwise there is no law because law without and punishable opposit is useless. But I could be way off here :)
Nysswald 2 years ago
That is a fairly good answer. Let me go one more step. Satan understands God's law. Satan knows that blood is required if man sins. Man was created without sin, prefect in God's eyes. Satan tricked man and therefore realized that God would have to punish man (hell). Satan wins right? Wrong -God has Jesus crucified to save man the punishment that the law demands. Jesus blood covers man's sin. The debt is now paid. The requirement of man - simple, you must believe Jesus paid the debt.
ub30f 2 years ago
If you believe that Jesus has taken the punishment for you then you are saved by Him. If you don't then the debt still has to be paid. Who will pay it? The only person left is the individual. There is no one left, it is God's attempt to rescue us from the law. The universe is full of laws and our lives are guided by laws. An intriguing concept that is very deep the more you investigate.
ub30f 2 years ago
That's a very thorough answer but for me it raises a question: god makes a law that requires blood if it's broken. Man is cheated into breaking it. gods law demands blood so jesus is sacrificed to spare man. (not very omnipotent to have to obey your own laws, but disregard that)Man must believe in this to be spared hell. Why is it necessary that I believe in this to avoid punishment? Allso, you didn't answer my question about disagreeing with god.
Nysswald 2 years ago
Good observation regarding omnipotent - lets go one step farther now. God knew we would sin before we did. But how do you create a being with free will then limit what that being can do? You can't if it has a truly free will. So God allowed us to sin and also gave us a Savior. Just as we had free will to sin we also have free will to have a Savior. So you see, just as we have sinned, we can also choose to save ourselves. It's our choice.
ub30f 2 years ago
I am sure if their was another way God would have used it, but then again I really don't know. How many years do you think we have left? The world seems like it's on a collection course. Looks like man is ready to breed himself out of a planet pretty soon.
ub30f 2 years ago
I really have no idea. Everything could go from decent to really bad in a few years if something drastic like a big natural disaster or a world war occurred. I do think this planet could sustain many more, but the way we (mostly the developed countries) are using the planets resoures today is not viable.
Nysswald 2 years ago
You have brought God to your level and you have determined in your mind how you would like God to save man. You have also stated how you would like God present himself. God does not work for you or me. Seek and you shall find. The key word is seek, and also the word shall. Shall means you will find. You have to give up your ways, otherwise He will be hidden from you. I did seek and I did find. Your opportunity is the same as mine. No one has the advantage over someone else.
ub30f 2 years ago
I agree that god does not work for you or me. But he loves me, it says so in the bible (doesn't it?). So if he loves me, why is he willing to let me burn for eternity if I can't find him? Would you pour gasoline on your children and light them up if the didn't tell you that they love you? No, offcourse not. Why? Because you really love them. So why is god willing to let me burn if I can't find him? My conclusion is that he is a hypocrite and doesn't love me. What is your interpretation?
Nysswald 2 years ago
My interpretation is that we sinned and therefore need intercession. That intercession can only be made by Jesus. So if you don't want it then have it your way. The Father is allowing the son (you) to make a choice. Bad choice but it's all yours.
ub30f 2 years ago
Ok, so you think it's right that god punishes me for eternity if I can't find him?
Nysswald 2 years ago
No I don't, but I also think that anyone who would allow himself to be tortured to death so I would not have to suffer the same is worth listening to. Guess it's all in how you look at it.
ub30f 2 years ago
Ok, so according to the bible I will burn for eternity if I can't believe/find/listen to god, who had his son (or part of himself) tortured to death so I would not have to suffer the same. And you don't think that this is right. Does that mean you disagree with god in other cases too?
Nysswald 2 years ago
Let me be clear, I agree with God and the Bible. I would say that it is possible you have not looked very well, but that is only my opinion. The Bible is clear that everyone has belief or even an opportunity to believe - Is this your opportunity now? Are you asking the relevant questions or are you trying to set a trap? The Pharisees found themselves in that same place and they were church leadership. Sometimes our pride prevents us from allowing our heart to listen.
ub30f 2 years ago
I asked if you feel it's right that god punishes me if I can't find him? And you answered that you don't agree with that. How is that not disagreeing? I see what you mean, but I have looked and I have not found any evidence for god that matters if you do not allready believe. And I know that you will tell me to give in to god and that if I truly search then I will find and things like that. But that is not how I work. I can't believe in something based on faith alone, I need more. Got any?
Nysswald 2 years ago
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ub30f 2 years ago
"So why do you think it is that he keeps himself hidden?" Many would debate the opposite. If you believe the account of Jesus, which science confirms, then you would have to determine if he was God or just a man. The most studied person in history is either the biggest liar or He is the Son of God.
ub30f 2 years ago
Mythical characters are very good a keeping themselves hidden...in fact it's very easy if you don't actually exist.
Science confirms Jesus huh? Well that's a new one ... I'm sure it would have been front page news if that were the case.
You also say that Jesus is either the biggest liar or he is the Son of God. Of course you've missed out the third option...his life and words were all made up by others.
kalsolarUK 2 years ago
If jesus existed or not as a person doesn't really matter to my question. My point is that if this really happened, it happened more then 2000 years ago. That makes it kind of hard to belive. So why do you think he keep himself hidden today? Hope that clears up what I meant.
Nysswald 2 years ago
So if he appeared today and 2,000 years from now would they not say the same thing? He is the most documented figure in the history of the world. There has and will always be more discussion on Him than any other person - does that not count? Do you believe in Columbus?
ub30f 2 years ago
Probably, so why not show us that he exist on say a yearly basis? I don't agree that he is the most documented figure in the history of the world. Most famous people living in western society is much more documented and by that I meen easier to prove to have existed. He might be the most discussed person (assuming he acctually did exist) but no, I don't think it counts for anything. Why should it? Yes, I do think Columbus existed, but there are much more reliable sources from that time.
Nysswald 2 years ago
How do you know they are reliable? What scientific proof is there. There are people that believe the holocaust never happened or that 9/11 was an inside job. I think the burden of proof lies within the individual don't you? Is it not up to the individual to go looking for the answers?
ub30f 2 years ago
There are several correlating sources from that period of time. I think the burden of proof for the individual lies within the individual, you can believe what ever you want. But if you can't offer any proof that matters to me, I have the right to say it's a stupid belief. Yes, it's up to the individual to look for answears. That is what I am doing. I am trying to figure out why god has not showed himself to us in a clear way for 2000 years? Do you see any logical reason for this? Because I dont
Nysswald 2 years ago
You must look for God on his terms not yours. You want God to manifest himself in a way that you want and therefore, have God answer to you. He answers to no one. He has set the rules and if you do not wish to play then that is your right you might say. So in the end you can have it your way and God will be blameless for your decision. I think it is an in-genius concept and weeds out the true believers from the non believers. If you look you will find - I guess it is just up to you.
ub30f 2 years ago
God told you all this did he? Or..let me guess..other humans told you this or you read it in the bible (a book also written by men a very long time ago). There's no virtue in belief without true evidence. That's just called being gullible.
kalsolarUK 2 years ago
Ok, so god does not show himself because he wants you to play by his rules and look for him. This is what Erwing Goffman would call mystifications. By not allowing people to see him, he can make whatever claims he wants and the audience will not question them because he has created a social distance between himself and the audience. This is basically a form of social control. But what I still don't understand is this: (see next post)
Nysswald 2 years ago
"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) This is a demonstration of love without conditions (i.e. unconditional love). He demonstrates his love by sacrificing his son without any demands on us sinners. So how is this unconditional love unifiable with letting us burn in hell just because he couldn't be bothered to show himself?
Nysswald 2 years ago
Because you will not believe that he is the sin sacrifice, therefore there is nothing to keep you from the consequences.
ub30f 2 years ago
But even if I believe that "he is the sin sacrifice" this doesn't make much sense. god is omnipotent, therefore he could have choosen another way of relieving man of sin. Why choose to sacrifice his own son? To me that would be the very far down on the list of solutions. Allso; it bothers me that while god shows unconditional love in some parts of the bible (Romans 5:8 as mentioned) in other parts there are consequences (i.e. hell) of not believing in him. (Continued in next post)
Nysswald 2 years ago
Claiming unconditional love and then punishing those who don't believe, to me that's just hypocrisy. What do you think?
Nysswald 2 years ago
I think everyone needs a sin atonement. So if believing that Jesus is that sin atonement then I am going to believe. Now I am saved and can go on - seems simple enough to me.
ub30f 2 years ago
Earlier when I made a statement claiming that believing in god is a way of simplifying life you wrote that life is not simple, and actually so complex that there is no solution. But here you basically say: I need sin atonement, jesus provides sin atonement. Therefore I believe in jesus and my life gets easier. To me, that is simplifying. What is it to you?
Nysswald 2 years ago
He can sacrifice his own son, but he can't show himself. Makes little sense if you ask me. How do you think about this?
Nysswald 2 years ago
If God, the father and God the Son, and the Holly Spirit are 3 in 1 (Trinity), then he did "show" himself. It's like water, vapor, and ice. Three variations of the same thing.
ub30f 2 years ago
I understand the trinity but wheter or not god showed himself 2000+ years ago is not relevant for my question. What I want to know is why he doesn't show himself today, or tomorrow or weekly? This is how I should have written, sorry about that: So how is this unconditional love unifiable with letting us burn in hell just because he couldn't be bothered to show himself TODAY?
Nysswald 2 years ago
I see what you mean, but in my meaning there is no soul (no proof that I know of) and the meaning of life is not universall. Here is how I would answear those questions in a generall way: Why are we here? Why do you feel that we are here? What is our purpose? What purpose is meaningfull to you? Why are people mean? For a huge variety of reasons, allso. What appears mean in your point of view might not be in theirs. Bad things happen to good people by chance, and vice versa. What did you find?
Nysswald 2 years ago
That is correct, proof is faith. Faith is the feeling. It is the spiritual not the tangible. What keeps the cosmos together - unknown (no proof). Where did the first replicating DNA come from - unknown (no proof). Two theories with the same dilemma you might say. So in what faith do you rest your belief? A crossroads, a choice.I am, therefore I exist. I comprehend, therefore I reason. Meaningful to me is the knowledge of my reason for being.
ub30f 2 years ago
Some proof is faith. What keeps the cosmos together/where did the first replicating DNA come from. We do have theories for these questions, and as you know a scientific theory has to fit with all the existing evidence and it must be falsifiable. My point is that a scientific theory does not require faith in the same way that say belief in a god does. This is because a scientific theory is "built" on evidence and can be falsified, as opposed to a god. What do you consider to be proof of god?
Nysswald 2 years ago
Science does not have to require the same faith is correct, although, when dealing with science in regards to man's origin it does. Since no one knows man origin we must rely on what has been discovered or written. Science can be used as a tool to help believers discover more of God. We use science in the same way you know. Science is only a tool, science in itself is not an answer. Proof of God is Jesus, Bible, testimony, artifacts, prophesy, and our own intuition.
ub30f 2 years ago
Regarding man's origins: Yes, we must rely on what has been discovered and written. Discovering things, then making a theory that fit with those discoveries (and all earlier discoveries) and predicts what possible disoveries might look like in the future is basically what this type of science is all about. I don't really see how this would require faith. Yes, science can be used to discover more of god. However, most scientific results do not speak in favor of a god. Take prayer for example:
Nysswald 2 years ago
I would agree that science is not in favor of God. I know because of my science background. Science is the discovery of things excluding God. Because God cannot be proven scientifically as we know it. The explanation for the physical must be discussed in terms of comprehension through the explanation of what we know. The theory of God cannot be allowed to dictate a conclusion, therefore, God is eliminated from the equation and a man made explanation is used.
ub30f 2 years ago
Yes, god cannot be proven scientifically. However, this does not explain why prayer has been proven to be useless. Proof of a significant effect of prayer would not prove the existence of a god (or gods), but it would not damage "the case for god". But as said prayer has been proven to have no significant effect, this in the same way does not disprove the existence of a god (or gods), but it certainly does not help "the case for god". Why do you think that prayer has had no effect when tested?
Nysswald 2 years ago
Prayer is a personal communication between a person and the Creator. The Creator does not grant wishes. I can tell you that prayer has worked in my life and on more than one occasion. Stepping out in complete faith was a difficult step for me to achieve - but I did and the results were undeniable. God will not partake in an experiment only a personal communication on a spiritual level. I have been blessed by God and I am His servant.
ub30f 2 years ago
But why wouldn't he partake in an experiment? All I want to know is why god has to make it so hard to belive in him? If he were to simply manifest his powers for us non-believers somehow then there would be no argument. Free will would not be canceled, one could still choose not to believe, but there would be no argument.
Nysswald 2 years ago
This has several times been proven to have no significant effect on how well a person recovers from different diseases and other things. I agree that science is a tool, but the answers it contributes are far more "sturdy" then personal opinions and similar things.
Nysswald 2 years ago
What I have always wondered is why god makes it so difficult to belive in him? He doesn't offer much proof that matters for someone who doesn't allready belive in him. If he was to show himself to the world, (or manifest his powers in some other obvious way)lots more people would start beliveing in him, but it still wouldn't effect our free will, everyone would still have the option of not believing. So why do you think it is that he keeps himself hidden?
Nysswald 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The New Parable of the Fig Tree:
And God said: "Let there be Fig Trees!"; and there were Fig Trees. And God saw that they were good. And one day, God was walking in the Garden(as was His wont); and He happened upon the Fig Tree. And God said unto the Fig Tree: "Thou shalt not bear Figs out of season; for in the day thou bearest Figs out of season; Thou shalt surely die"
Sockpuppet2012 2 years ago
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And on the second day, God created Jesus in His own image; in His own image created He Him. And God appointed Jesus to tend the Garden, and said unto Him: "Of all the Trees Thou mayest freely eat; in Fig season, Thou mayest eat Figs; in Apple season, Thou mayest eat Apples....etc"
Sockpuppet2012 2 years ago
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And one day Jesus was walking in the Garden(like Father; like Son); and He happened upon the Fig Tree, and He bethought Himself to eat some Figs(for He was an hungered); but the time for Figs was not yet, so the Tree didn't give a Fig! So Jesus cursed the Fig Tree, saying: "May you wither and rot; and may Satan cast thee into the Fire!" And behold! the Fig Tree gave up the ghost, and was no more!
Sockpuppet2012 2 years ago
And when Satan told God what had happened, God was wroth. And He said unto Jesus: "What hast Thou done with the Gift of Reason that I gavedst Thee, Thou unruly Child?; Now go to Heaven, and stay there until Thy Second Coming!"
Learn the New Parable of The Fig Tree! He that hath ears; let him hear. He that hath eyes; let him see!
Sockpuppet2012 2 years ago
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Sockpuppet2012 2 years ago
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Sockpuppet2012 2 years ago
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Sockpuppet2012 2 years ago
From an Atheist perspective, Jesus was an idiot for not knowing that fig trees don't have figs out of season.
From a Deist perspective, Jesus wasn't only cursing the fig tree; he was also cursing Nature, and Nature's God.
I invite all Christians to respond to my comment! I dare you!.......I DOUBLE DARE YOU!!
Sockpuppet2012 2 years ago
"I invite all Christians to respond to my comment! I dare you!.......I DOUBLE DARE YOU!!"
Really now, what Christian actually cares what you think. We are right and you are wrong. God has spoken to us so your fight is with God. Ask him your silly little question if you dare. We are spiritually ordained. You of of the world - your argument has no merit with us.
ub30f 2 years ago
"We are right and you are wrong"........."God has spoken to us"........."We are spiritually ordained"
HaHaHa!! PMPLOL(That meansPiss My Pants Laughing Out Loud in internet slang)
" your fight is with God"
No it isn't! I believe in Nature and Nature's God; So I don't curse my cat for not having puppies; nor do I curse my sister for not having a dick; nor do I curse my avocado tree in May!
By the way; you didn't answer my comment!
Sockpuppet2012 2 years ago
"By the way; you didn't answer my comment!"
And I won't. God has already answered it for you. My condolences to you.
ub30f 2 years ago
If you do not care what any non-christians think, than why do you keep posting here? If you already have the truth, then why do you need to argue with anyone? Seems redundant.
Nysswald 2 years ago
I only reply on this channel when individuals like you write me a line or two. Yes, I have the truth and it is comforting to my soul.
ub30f 2 years ago
And what kind of individual would that make me? Yes, "comforting" would be the key word here. Have you ever tried stepping out of your comfort-zone and perhaps taking a different perspective on your "truth"? You know, truth is a relative thing. What is true for you might not be true for me and vice versa. So claiming to have some kind of universal truth is rather meaningless.
Nysswald 2 years ago
For 32 years I walked like you. No longer walking in darkness not understanding life I found the meaning of life, this world, and all of it's misery in one simple book. Needless to say, I understand why we are like we are, why we do the things we do, and why we act the way we act. My prospective is from both sides and I can tell you this side is much better. But serve yourself it's your choice. Truth is the meaning of life - I know what that is.
ub30f 2 years ago
Good for you, but to me that is a huge oversimplification. To me this world is not simple, and neither is my life in this world. I can see how it must feel good to "understand" all these things, but in my opinion this is not understanding, this is simplifying for the sake of not having to deal with all the questions which otherwise occur. I agree that you know the truth and the meaning of life, for you.
Nysswald 2 years ago
Simple - hardly. In fact, it is so complex that there is no solution. The father you get away from the truth the more complex it gets. You can work toward your goal but as time goes by you will find that there is no solution only more compounded problems. As long as man tries to find the solution it will be hidden from him because man cannot understand through his own ability. Once you give up self then you understand and come to a place of peace.
ub30f 2 years ago
So we agree that neither this world nor our life in it is simple. Where we seem to disagree is that you claim that there is an absolute truth that will give peace and enable understanding of the difficult questions in life. I on the other hand claim that there are no absolute truths, there are only personal truths. And in my opinion finding this personal truth can be achived by man through his on ability. To me it's all about creating meaning.
Nysswald 2 years ago
Yes, we agree on that. I also have personal truths. Because my understanding of life is very personal and I view everyone in a different light. God has spoken to me in an indiviual way. I still have all the same choices you have, I am just no longer interested in them like I once was.For me, it is as though I have been given a instruction booklet on man and woman.Yes, I know you feel that man can do it by his own ability - War/famine/disease/peace.For 2,000 years but the outcome is the same
ub30f 2 years ago
Creating meaning can take all sorts of forms, since it's what you, as an individual consider to be meaningful. Religion, politics, science, your job, your family, stamps, cats, whatever. Most of the time it's usually som combination of many different things which for an individual creates meaning and truth. But don't get me wrong, I am not claiming that everyone has found their meaning and their truth, I just think that everyone is capable of doing so, without having to "give up self".
Nysswald 2 years ago
Yes, you are correct that those things can help you feel a sense of meaning. A combination is even better, but it is the satisfaction of the soul that I was after. The meaining of life itself. Why are we here? What is our purpose? Why are people mean? In a world where the absolute worst can happen to the best of people - why? I want to help people and to understand them, I never expected to find what I found.
ub30f 2 years ago
It is not that I do not care what you think, rather that your understanding of what you believe is based in human understanding. I do not follow that theory since my understanding is based on the theory of God. I am not arguing with anyone and only replying to your comments.
ub30f 2 years ago